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  1. #1

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    Toning with brown and selenium

    Hello.... it's I again and I am STILL having toning problems.

    Paper is Adorama FB MATTE which has very similar characteristic to Ilford WT FB. Developer is Dektol 1:2.
    Selenium is Kodak KRST 1:40 and brown toner is LegacyPro diluted to standard dilution. I understand this is a clone of Kodak's brown toner.

    My current process is to print an image and process to completion with complete washing cycle.
    Then cover an area where I do NOT want toning with rubber cement and into brown toner bath for 6 minutes.
    HCA for 3 minutes to stop the action.
    Rub off the cement and 30 minutes wash.
    Dry.

    At this point, it's perfect - brown tone is just right and mood is right. EXCEPT, the part that was covered with rubber cement lacks brilliance.

    So... the print is wet again, go to KRST bath for 2 minutes.
    60 minutes wash.
    Dry completely.

    Now.... the brown toned portion has shifted somewhat to purple and looks a tad lighter than before. I can see a slight increase in contrast. The part that was covered initially and did not receive brown toning looks right. Right brilliance and range of tones.

    Covering this print again with rubber cement or frisket during the second toning stage isn't possible/practical because of the composition.

    Here's my problem:
    1) I didn't like the fact brown shifted a little to purple
    2) Why did the brown toned portion look lighter after selenium?
    3) Should I tone the whole thing with selenium first, cover, then brown tone?
    4) GENERALLY SPEAKING, toning with selenium first or brown first, how would the result differ? This is assuming the washing steps are complete between the steps so there are no interactions. I've done both in different prints but I am not able to characterize what I saw.

    So far, I've spent 10 days total with this image...
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  2. #2

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    No one?

    I'm continuing to experiment on my own. I've been finding, brown first, complete wash, then selenium affects brown part more than untoned part. Instead of intensifying the brown, it shifts more to red and lightens it a bit. Strange.... I'd expected brown to get darker because left-over silver will intensify in selenium. Nope!
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  3. #3

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    I guess this is going to be a monologue thread....

    Did a test #3.

    KRST = Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner
    KBT = Kodak Brown toner aka LegacyPro Brown

    Took a print that had 10% more exposure, cut it up in strips and tested various combinations.

    I was able to control and lessen reddening of the brown by reversing the order. KRST 1:40 for 2 minutes, then KBT for 3:30 minutes. The color change then stayed more less on brown without excessive red.

    By doing KRST then to KBT, it also added quite a bit of edge definition so the image looks crisper and has a bit of "pop" to it.

    Next is a full size print test. Looking good!
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  4. #4
    Katie's Avatar
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    Oddly enough - I struggle with this same thing with Sepia. I *almost* ordered the brown toner from the Freestyle catalog - actually, can't remember if I did or not.

    Keep up with the monologue. I'm listening. Just have no advice.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkamiya View Post
    No one?

    I'm continuing to experiment on my own. I've been finding, brown first, complete wash, then selenium affects brown part more than untoned part. Instead of intensifying the brown, it shifts more to red and lightens it a bit. Strange.... I'd expected brown to get darker because left-over silver will intensify in selenium. Nope!
    Hi tkamiya, I've noted the same effect of sepia toners lightening in selenium and I quite like it. I don't know how you'd prevent it happening though. If you tone in selenium first, watch carefully because once fully toned the selenium area won't take the brown toner. But you probably know that anyway!

    Good luck with it,
    kevs.
    testing...

  6. #6
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    Use selenium to control brown toner. I always go KRST first and then polysulphide after a wash. It's actually more wash efficient to follow this order as well.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  7. #7

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    This is QUITE interesting. I can see use for both ways (KRST first or KBT first) as they both have distinctive look although subtle.

    I tried to scan my result but the result really didn't show what I am seeing without boosting saturation and contrast too high. I am also quite surprised how these little changes make BIG difference in the mood of the image.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  8. #8

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    cyane,

    Yes, I found that out the hard way. In my earlier tests, I did KBT first then to a brief (5 minutes) wash, then KRST. The brown toner REALLY took off in KRST! It shifted all the way to almost bright orangy brown in about 30 seconds. Since then, when doing KBT first, I either use HCA and 30 minutes wash or 60 minutes wash without HCA.

    Doing KRST first, 5 minutes wash seems to be sufficient. Longer wash didn't change the result. (of course, my final wash is long for archival reasons)
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  9. #9

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    Here's a Q for those who practice this method of toning....

    According to Kodak's publication, it is recommended that prints be hardened after KBT or Sepia toning. Kodak recommends simply using Hardening Fixer for this purpose. It says, brown/sepia softens the emulsion.

    Is this necessary with modern paper? I don't see any difference in look and feel of the paper after they are dry.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  10. #10

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    thamiya, just had a thought about the part of the print that was covered by the rubber cement looking lighter after you toned the print in brown toner.Could be the brown toner added more density to the print and none to the covered area, which made the covered area look lighter because it did not have the extra density from the brown toner . That's what I was thinking.
    Mike

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