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  1. #31
    NedL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven_e007 View Post
    I've just clicked on a few APUIG profiles and checked a few ages. After a quick and dirty calculation I see the average age of a typicall APUG user is 93.
    Maybe I'm tired right now but I'm still laughing. I'm only 51 and honestly I don't know what a hipster is. That's OK. I'm glad there are young people shooting film.

  2. #32
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven_e007 View Post
    I've just clicked on a few APUG profiles and checked a few ages. After a quick and dirty calculation I see the average age of a typicall APUG user is 93. Film will die out when no one buys it any more. I don't think the typical APUGer is going to be the best candidate to future proof film long term...

    Personally I think the more trendy, the more 'hip' (whatever it means) to youngsters, the better.

    I'm perfectly fine with film being marketed as 'cool', 'with it', ''sick', 'bad', or whatever other youth fashionable labels that can be stuck on it.

    Just make sure the kiddies buy the stuff. I don't care whether they know how to use it, just as long as they BUY IT.

    They'll get old, cynical, pedantic and start arguing about DOF tables and agitation techniques soon enough....

    Good point, but were are those?

    see here:
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum47/1...time-ever.html

    (Well, following steven's argumentation, maybe it's not even necessary to see them, as long as the effect is in the company results.)
    Last edited by AgX; 10-29-2012 at 06:06 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    I am afraid that most on APUG would side with Mr Galley on the archival aspect of today's acetate base. What are your credentials Mr Streondj?
    Perhaps they would out of wishful thinking *shrugs*.

    I read and research things I'm interested in.
    Really you don't have to take my word for it,
    it's common knowledge amongst most archivists.
    I've read plenty of sources and textbooks about photography that mention it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmacd123 View Post
    Poly film is used for industrial photography, (such as shooting from aircraft, etc) as it is very dimensionally stable and very tough. This is the same reason is is used for Motion Picture PRINT film. On the minus side it is curly, and attracts dust.
    hmmm I'm pretty sure it's acetate that's curly,
    I know at least rollei superpan has no curling layers so it's flat.
    dust eh? well typically it's stored in an album, so that's hardly an issue.

    Most movie negative is still Acetate.
    ya, how unfortunate for those movies..

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean-Louis Bigourdan, Image Permanence Institute, Rochester Institute of Technology
    Fifty years after the replacement of nitrate by triacetate film base, motion-picture film archives are facing another preservation challenge. Today it is likely that most archives are affected by vinegar syndrome. It is widely recognized that acetate base film is inherently unstable. Many institutions, however, may not have given sufficient attention to the problem of preserving their acetate film collections for the future.

    Triacetate film base, like nitrate, is a chemically unstable support. Both are subject to spontaneous decay, which shortens the life expectancy of photographic film. ...
    Data indicate that freshly processed acetate base film can last for several centuries in cold storage. Under adverse storage conditions, however, acetate base decay has been observed after only a few years....
    Despite archivists’ efforts and dedication, film collections have rarely benefited from optimum storage conditions. Consequently, most acetate collections are affected by the vinegar syndrome and may be decaying at an unacceptable rate.
    source: https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/webfm_send/308

    Point being, even if you go through the trouble of freezing all your negatives now,
    there is no guarantee that they'll continue to be frozen for generations to come,
    so may as well put them on a film that'll be stable at room temperature.

    From a cost-analysis perspective, acetate film is more expensive,
    since on the long term, have to spend energy freezing it.
    Which is more emissions, and toxins in the atmosphere.

    Whereas polyester will do great on a book shelf,
    in an album, with the photos and records.
    cheaper and more eco-friendly :-).
    Last edited by streondj; 10-30-2012 at 01:19 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #34
    AgX
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    You made some good points!
    Even more could bed added.


    However, so far I know the dramatic cases of vinegar syndrome have only been reported about tightly spooled films (eg.cine films), not on films stored in paper sleeves. Aside of that longevity prognosis in general is somewhat tricky.


    But more important: IlfordPhoto seemingly has become the holy cow here at Apug, so you likely won't get much approval here.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie Brim View Post
    Considering that there are negatives around from the 20s and 30's in box/folding cameras that are still good..
    Those are cellulose nitrate films.
    Triacetate is ca. 1950 - ..
    Cold (-15° to 4° C) and dry (30% to 40% relative humidity) environments are the only means of preserving nitrate and triacetate originals over long periods of time.
    Polyester is ca. 1955 - ..
    Black & white negatives on polyester support may be stored at a temperature of 18° C or lower and a relative humidity of 30% to 40%.
    Color negatives on polyester support require cold storage for their long term preservation.

    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    .....
    However, so far I know the dramatic cases of vinegar syndrome have only been reported about tightly spooled films (eg.cine films), not on films stored in paper sleeves. Aside of that longevity prognosis in general is somewhat tricky.
    At room temp acetate films stored in soft paper can out-gas to some extend the acid fumes, thus slowing down the base to eat itself up.
    Acetate films in Glassine or Clear File (polypropylene) sleeves does not breathe well.

    The deterioration process is auto-catalytic and moisture and temperature dependent.

  6. #36

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    Rollei Blackbird film

    OK so glassline are no better than the plastic ones for off gassing?

    I not using the glassline any more - another PrintFile user - but I remember my first photo instructor praising the glassline for archival reasons. I think I moved to PrintFiles for ease of contact printing (which I do not do any more-I scan everything and print 'contact sheets' in iphoto)

    I have found this an interesting post. I want long term archiving (I was not aware that the acetate base we use now is different from the stuff from the 20's) but polyester concerns me as I have torn sprocket holes on some film and want my film to give before the gears do!!

    I also want to keep using the films I love so maybe I just need to look at my storage methods.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie Brim
    Considering that there are negatives around from the 20s and 30's in box/folding cameras that are still good..
    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    Those are cellulose nitrate films.
    Triacetate is ca. 1950 - ..
    Cold (-15° to 4° C) and dry (30% to 40% relative humidity) environments are the only means of preserving nitrate and triacetate originals over long periods of time.
    Polyester is ca. 1955 - ..
    Black & white negatives on polyester support may be stored at a temperature of 18° C or lower and a relative humidity of 30% to 40%.
    Color negatives on polyester support require cold storage for their long term preservation.



    At room temp acetate films stored in soft paper can out-gas to some extend the acid fumes, thus slowing down the base to eat itself up.
    Acetate films in Glassine or Clear File (polypropylene) sleeves does not breathe well.

    The deterioration process is auto-catalytic and moisture and temperature dependent.
    I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S., nitrate roll films were replaced by acetate long before 1920. Amateur motion picture films went to acetate early on, too. Only professional motion picture films continued to use nitrate base into the 1940s.
    Happiness is a load of bulk chemicals, a handful of recipes, a brick of film and a box of paper. - desertrat

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by desertrat View Post
    I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S., nitrate roll films were replaced by acetate long before 1920. Amateur motion picture films went to acetate early on, too. Only professional motion picture films continued to use nitrate base into the 1940s.
    Perhaps You are referring to:
    diacetate ca. 1923 – ca. 1955
    or Mixed esters:
    acetate propionate 1927 – ca. 1949
    acetate butyrate - 1936 – today

    Triacetate was made after 1950 due to the availability and lower cost of methylene chloride.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsmccrac View Post
    OK so glassline are no better than the plastic ones for off gassing?

    I not using the glassline any more - another PrintFile user - but I remember my first photo instructor praising the glassline for archival reasons. I think I moved to PrintFiles for ease of contact printing (which I do not do any more-I scan everything and print 'contact sheets' in iphoto)

    I have found this an interesting post. I want long term archiving (I was not aware that the acetate base we use now is different from the stuff from the 20's) but polyester concerns me as I have torn sprocket holes on some film and want my film to give before the gears do!!

    I also want to keep using the films I love so maybe I just need to look at my storage methods.
    Glassine pH at time of manufacture is 6.8-7.5 but is unbuffered, so pH value is expected to drop when exposed to normal
    atmospheric conditions.
    There are acid-free paper products, buffered against acid deterioration - pH 8.0-8.5 mostly they use calcium carbonate buffer.
    Usually available from library suppliers.

    Polyester could be a challenge for 35mm auto-everything cameras.
    I haven't experienced problems with manual 35mm ones or MF. Light piping might be tricky when load / unload film sometimes.

  10. #40
    AgX
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    As clarification to the posts above:

    All acetate-films (the film base) are made from a syrop-like mass containing an organic solvent, coated onto a heated base and coold down. The so-called tri-acetate films (most common) have features superior to other acetate-films, but need a solvent, that for long time was expensive (even though getting recycled for the greatest part). As an alternative to offer safety film-base other acetate-films were used, as films based on di-acetate or mixed acetates.

    That acetate is standing in principle for short side-chains to the long cellulosis-chain, might these side-chains now based on one type of chain as in di- or tri-acetate, or a mixture of different chains as in aceto-proprionate, aceto-butyrate.
    But as you see aceto/acetate is always involved, which hints at the origin from acetic-acid.

    To the degree those mixed acetates were used on large scale production, sources vary to great extend.


    That aceto-bond is the weak linkage and the cause for degradation.
    Furthermore acetate-films may contain a softener that in long-term perspective is volatile.
    Both the linkage and the softener issue is seen in the old nitrate-films too.

    This is why some see a similar problem to come as experienced with nitrate-films, lacking of course that problem of ignition.
    Last edited by AgX; 10-30-2012 at 02:01 PM. Click to view previous post history.

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