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  1. #11

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    Matt,

    I thought BLUE was an iron blue toner. My understanding is that component of the toner reacts with silver in the image and turns into dye - in turn toning that location. So.... I thought it will affect the shadow and leave the highlight alone. Instructions say to wash long enough to clear the highlight.

    I did that and everything washed off.... very very very vague hint of blue remained but it hardly left any color.

    Something is awfully wrong here.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  2. #12
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Nope - at least not if the Edwal Blue toner is like the Berg blue "toner" I have used - see the Freestyle link referred to in Ian C's post above.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  3. #13

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    What's odd though, the stock solution is definitely blue. When diluted 1:15, it becomes almost clear. When it touches print, it starts to turn really blue. It might have some dye component to it but I do think it isn't a pure dye based toner.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  4. #14

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    More experimentation....

    Diluted the stock solution to 1:10 rather than 1:15 and poured it on top of the print. Let it sit there for 5 minutes. Then washed it with tray full of water with a little bit of stop bath to make it acidic. (I read alkaline water will dissolve color)

    Well... It's blue.... but it's more of stain than tone.

    I can see shadow is in darker blue than highlight but even borders are in light blue. 15 minutes wash did not clear the border. It's stained....

    It is still acting like a blue ink.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  5. #15
    Nicholas Lindan's Avatar
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    I used Edwal's blue toner many years ago.

    My memories are:

    It toned the silver blue - it toned the highlights first and the shadows last - so you could split tone depending on when you pulled the print from the toner bath. Blacks stayed black (it may have been blue-black in some spectroscopic reality, but it just looked black).

    It didn't tone the borders.

    It wasn't like pouring blue ink on the paper.

    It really toned the tray -- I could not get the blue precipitate off the tray, though enough came off as smudges on any print I tried to process in the tray. Either trash one tray or dedicate it to blue toning. Probably the ideal tray would be a Pyrex baking dish. Silver will halide will build up in a fixer tray and it is impossible to get it out of the plastic. You don't notice it until you mix the trays up and pour developer into the tray and the white tray turns silver gray (or use it for selenium and have it turn purple/pink).

    If it is still the iron toner that I remember then the formation of the Prussian blue pigment requires silver. If the toner is old and oxidized (or whatever happens to blue toner with time) then it may do something other - like turn everything blue? But I have no experience that it does go bad in such a fashion.

    If the print isn't completely fixed then there will be silver halide in the border/highlights and the toner will react with it and turn blue. The same happens with selenium toner and is the reason for 'selenium staining'. A drop of selenium toner on the border of a print is used as a test of residual silver, if color develops then the print wasn't fixed long enough (or the fixer is loaded with silver and the print hasn't been washed enough).

    Try a two-bath fixing regime, a good treatment in fresh HCA, and a thorough wash before toning. Check with test solutions that there is no residual silver or residual fixer in the print. Often the toner instructions say you can go straight from the fix to the toner - in my experience this is just asking for stains and/or toned borders.
    Last edited by Nicholas Lindan; 05-12-2012 at 11:40 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    DARKROOM AUTOMATION
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  6. #16

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    Nicholas,

    I already do two-fix and HCA, then 30 minutes wash. If I skip HCA, I do 60 minutes wash. Always two bath fix. So that's not part of the equation.

    I think "silver blue" is a good description of the color. I thought of it as a neon blue. Yup, it toned my cups and trays. Everything is in nice blue except the print....

    I have no idea what this stuff is anymore.

    I am going to play with this again today and see.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  7. #17

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    I found the source of my problem. It was paper.

    I was using Adorama brand FB Matte because this paper tones beautifully in selenium and brown. But apparently, it isn't reactive to blue. As soon as I switched to Ilford FB WT, it toned and to the color I was looking for.

    EXCEPT... this tone doesn't really work with this image in a way I was hoping.

    Oh well...
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  8. #18

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    Nope, it wasn't paper....

    My current thought is that my initial failure was a result of insufficient amount of toner in solution. I tried with plenty of 1:15 (recommended) solution and the Adorama paper toned well. Actually, too well. It turned pretty dark blue. Tried with 1:30 and toning action stopped prematurely.

    This stuff really stains all over. Borders are definitely stained in blue. I fixed using two bath method and HCA, then into 30 minutes wash.

    I made 26 small prints and toned one in selenium. No stains. Toned in blue - entire border turned blue.

    Worse, I lost detail in highlight area. I'm thinking ferricynide in this blue toner bleached it all out....

    Combined, my experiment was a failure. Not only did I not get the result I was looking for, the process itself is pretty much uncontrollable. Staining in white area and loss of detail is not acceptable in this particular image.

    Due to lack of my experience with other blue toners, I am not certain if this particular toner (Edwal blue) is the problem or all blue toners act like this. I am contemplating of ordering a kit from Photographer's formulary.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  9. #19
    zsas's Avatar
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    Have you thought about using a gold toner, as gold will turn the print blue, see T-26:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe...bs/g23/g23.pdf

    There are also premixed golds at Freestyle (Photospeed I believe) and at Formulary

    I am on a huge gold chloride kick lately and love it's abilities...
    Andy

  10. #20

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    I think I got what I want here.....

    Blue wasn't the solution. I thought what I wanted was a blue tone because the print is a beach scene with lots of water and sky. Nope. It spoke the different language even when I got the right blue. I was able to over-wash this print and adjust the blue. It still wasn't right.

    Ilford FBWT and DEEP selenium toning was the solution. In m desperation, I took Ilford FBWT and deep selenium toned it. KRST 1:5 for 3 minutes. It took the print to a deep dark chocolate brown. Highlight has nice more less off white base coming through. It speaks the right language. Not so obviously brown like brown toner would make it. It has a hint of brown. Dark but warm.

    Yay!
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

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