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  1. #21
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrst View Post
    This is discussed many times, but there is a completely different phenomenon called "microreticulation" or "grain clumping" that looks exactly like grain, without the typical reticulation pattern. Also, it is stated it happens more easily than traditional reticulation, even with modern films.

    Some people always deny its existence, but I believe in it because I've seen it myself.
    It's the term micro reticlation they won't accept

    There's no doubt of the existance of micro/surface reticulation, it's why Ctein wet mounts his negatives against glass for printing and why high end scans are wet mounted as well, something that was first done in the 1920's to reduce the grain in enlargements from 35mm film. It's not "Grain clumping" in the film though it's the effect of irregularities on the surface of the filmcausing increased ggraininess in prints and particularly scans where it shows up more.

    Gerald Koch is right that true reticulation is almost impossible to induce with most modern films and newer hardening techniques have made micro/surface reticulation a thing of the past with many films. Neopan 400 and the older Tmax 400 can suffer this surface effect which became a problen with the advent of the firts digital minilabs prints made with the films of the time were grainier than optical prints. Kodak improved many of their films and the new datasheets & press releases state the films have been improved for scanning.

    However there are other exceptions and films from some smaller manufaturers like Foma and particularly EFKE have less hardening. EFKE films will reticulate and even slide off the base.

    Rodinal in particular can increase the likelyhood of micro/surface reticulation because of the free hydroxide it contains, most cases with Neopna 400 that people have reorted have been with Rodinal.

    It's not the film/developer combination itself that's the cause it's poor temperature control throughout the entire process cycle.

    Ian

  2. #22

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    For what it is worth and if it is any help... I once accidentally mixed a stock solution of ID11 as if it had come a package for 5 liters but was actually for 1 liter and then developed a roll of 120 Delta 400 at 1:1. Needlessly to say it was grossly under developed. I chose to first scan and see what might be salvageable and what I might have to do in the darkroom to get some kind of decent print but none of the negatives exhibited what you are discussing. (they didn't exhibit too much of anything else either)

    My best advice is to use what works and avoid the film/developer combination that caused the problem.

    http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

  3. #23
    ath
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    To me the pictures look simply underexposed. The hightlights fooled the meter and the scanner tries to extract shadow detail where no detail is, hence the grey blacks and the exaggerated "grain".
    Are the shadows blank on the neg? How's the contrast? Have you done wet prints?
    Regards,
    Andreas

  4. #24
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    Ian Grant: Thanks for the helpful reply & information there, Ian. For what it's worth, I have used Rodinal quite a lot in the past year and even with the poor temperature control that I apply throughout my processing steps, I haven't been able to produce any reticulation. I even developed a roll of Efke R25 once, in Rodinal at 28C. It came out pretty decent. Although I have heard that Efke & Foma are more prone to scratching...I can definitely verify that for 4x5 Fomapan 100. Would hate to see my film emulsion sliding off the base!

    jeffreyg: I get what you're saying. Looking back at my archives, I have shot many many underexposed photos before. I must have underdeveloped some as well. Were the negatives thin? Yes. But none of them exhibited the mottling effects that I showed in the pictures here. Citing your example, that roll of Delta 400 must have been grossly underdeveloped. I am becoming more & more convinced that this isn't a matter of underexposure. Probably underdevelopment or film/developer combinations. Thanks for the advice.

    ath: Thank you for your input. I've scanned underexposed photos on the same scanner before this, and none of them had the grey blacks & the exaggerated grain. That's what's puzzling me. the shadows on the neg are almost or completely blank, from what I can see. The contrast is very low throughout the entire roll that had this effect. I haven't done any wet prints from the rolls of film that has this problem.

  5. #25
    ath
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    If the blank part of the film is rendered grey or black is a matter of setting up your scan correct. Your problem is underexposure and underdevelopment.
    Expose the next film one stop more and develop more.
    Regards,
    Andreas

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    However there are other exceptions and films from some smaller manufaturers like Foma and particularly EFKE have less hardening. EFKE films will reticulate and even slide off the base.
    Ian
    As Ian points out there are a few older formulation films that are available. Such films as these might benefit from the use of a chrome alum stop bath. Chrome alum (potassium chromium sulfate) does a better job of hardening an emulsion than ordinary alum found in hardening fixers This chemical contains chromium (III) and not the very dangerous chromium (VI). A 3% solution is used for 2-5 minutes after the developer and before the fixer.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  7. #27
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    If the OP looks up Fomapan and reticulation there's a whole heap of posts and Rodinal is in the mix as well.

    Ian

  8. #28
    altair's Avatar
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    Ok, will do. I'll look up Fomapan & reticulation right away. Thanks everyone.

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