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  1. #1
    Blighty's Avatar
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    Toning for permanence

    I'm going to selenium tone some Prints made on Forte Polywarmtone FB. I am keen not to change the image colour (or as little as possible). Kodak says their KRST can be used at dilutions of 1+20 ~1+40, to improve permanence without the colour change. Is this correct? I have found Forte polywarm to be quite sensitive to selenium toning, and was wondering if even higher dilutions could be used. I have read (somewhere) of people diluting as much as 1+120!! Would a better alternative be to use Agfa Sistan? What does the forum think? Many thanks, BLIGHTY.

  2. #2
    titrisol's Avatar
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    Selenium toning (according to Rudman) only offers protection at strong dilutions, and when the prints are toned to almost completion. With Forte that means a very strong color change.
    Same with Viradon

    I have not used sistan, so I can't tell yu wheter it works or not
    Mama took my APX away.....

  3. #3

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    I'm not always keen on the reddish brown of selenium either. I usually use it only to add some depth to prints and pull them before they fully tone. The problem, as previously stated, is that full protection is not achieved without fully toning them. I've not tried Sistan either but it could be a good alternative. There is also Gold Protective toner. I'm not sure about color changes in the paper with this either and it's pretty expensive. Both Kodak Brown toner and Nelson Gold toner are archival and I like their colors better than selenium. I especially like Forte in Nelson Gold but it's a long process of 10-20 minutes in a hot solution.

  4. #4
    titrisol's Avatar
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    What color shift do you get in Nelson's? Bluish grays?
    Mama took my APX away.....

  5. #5
    ann
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    the following information comes from IPI (Image Permanence Institute) and from Tim Rudman's book "Toning Book" . Check Archival permanence in that book if you wish.

    The following is a quote from IPI "Selenium and gold toning only provided protection in proportion to the conversion that take (s) place, and even at high levels of toning protection was incomplete.

    Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner gave very little protection to the highlights and mid tones when used in high dilutions, as is often recommended for archival toning."

    (my comment: remember selenium works from the shadows up; gold from the highlights down)

    Tim Rudmen"s quote "Advice that selenium toning at high dilutions of 1:20 or more will give good image protection without colour shift should no longer be followed. Toning for permancence should be at 1:9 or stronger for at least three minutes at 68 and colour change on these papers is usually inevitable, if reasonably full protection is to be achieved. "
    Tim goes on to indicate that a Sistan treatment may help with additional protection, but "I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY HARD DATA ON THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THIS COMBINATION".

    Some where in the files i have some information about the IPI findings, but can't put my finger on this right now , but a little voice is reminding that at high dilutions ratios the time was something like 8 minutes for completion and with most papers you will get a color shift.

    Last year we ran a lot of test ( and continue to do so, *got behind* ) on various papers with various toners. The most resistent to color shift was Luminous Fiber cold tone paper. In a selenium ratio of 1"15 after 10 minutes there was a slight shift in Dmax but no color shift. Now this is just our experience with our equipment, etc. this was not a scientific study under controlled conditions.

    This is one reason i have been playing with Les"s extending toning treatments (that is not his term, but mine). One hour in 1:10 Seleium, Oriental Seagull graded paper at which time there is occurs a color shift some where between 8 to 10 minutes, and can still be seen after 1 hour altho less so, and then after 90 minutes in gold the color has completely disappeared with increase in dmax and a different sense of dimenison.

    Oh yes one other statement that comes from IPI. With regard to the effectiveness in terms of archival protection. This is the list in descending order:
    Polysulphides
    selenium'
    gold
    platinum
    "this assumes full toning".

    hope this is helpful.

  6. #6
    ann
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    oh, by the way, there has been a discussion going on about seleinum and sistan over on the "new Pure-silver- board if anyone wants to sign up and check out discussion. Some very "heavy Hitters" chimming in.,

  7. #7
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    I use dilutions of 1:9 but at 75 degrees F (versus 68 degree F).
    Jack Rosa

  8. #8
    ann
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    titrsol;
    Our experience with Nelson's gold lends more to tan, browns. not blue grays. Don't let the Gold in the formula mis lead you. Basic gold formula will give better blue cast.

    We do a lot of split toning with Nelson's gold and depending on the paper the results are wonderful, if that is what you are looking for. To compeletion is more tan, especially with warmtone papers.

  9. #9
    titrisol's Avatar
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    I haven't used gold yet... and rememebered your post a few days back about it, so just wondering
    Mama took my APX away.....

  10. #10

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    I really like the way Forte Polywarmtone Plus and Ilford Warmtone respond to Nelson gold. As Ann said, the color shift is to tan and light brown. I don't have a lot of experience with it but it's a more pleasing look than selenium or brown toner, in my opinion.

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