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  1. #11
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    photoflo info


    PHOTO-FLO Solutions are eye irritants. Wear adequate eye protection when mixing and using this product. Avoid contact with clothing or prolonged contact with skin.

    PHOTO-FLO 600 Solution is harmful or fatal if swallowed.

    PHOTO-FLO 2100 Solution causes eye burns.
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    Last edited by Vaughn; 06-28-2012 at 08:44 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Photo Flo is not a dish washing fluid. This is why I object to the use of dishsoaps as wetting agents for film.
    As Photo Flo is cheap enough and lasts a long time, I don't see the point in substituting dish soap. Why not just use the right thing?



    This question has me on the horns of a dilemma as to whether to consider it very intelligent or the stupidest question I have read here!

    Of course, one might say that there are no stupid questions, and my answer would be "I agree", but I would follow up by saying that there are quite a few inquisitive idiots!


    PE
    I took it to be intended as a joke, reversing the usual question.




    I have a question of my own for you- I took a picture of a wheat field and it's full of grain! What can I do? For some reason I've had the same problem with pictures of old wooden boards.
    Last edited by lxdude; 06-28-2012 at 09:49 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  3. #13
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Dish soap is an eye irritant as well and some can blind you! The Phtoflo family cannot blind you. The 600 and higher can kill you!

    Dish soap is a detergent, whereas Photo Flo is a surfactant. Get over it and learn the difference!

    PE

  4. #14

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    FIRST respect PE. He knows more that I do but here is a point that I do not understand.

    I'm a chemist and as far as I know Detergents and Surfactants are the same thing with different names. There are of course Anionic, Cationic and Zwitterionic detergents and they are chemically different. But in common terms I do not see where a generic detergent differs from a generic surfactant. If there is a difference please educate me.

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Dish soap is a detergent, whereas Photo Flo is a surfactant. Get over it and learn the difference!

    PE
    Well, can I use it in the rinse aid dispenser in my dishwasher? That's a surfactant, isn't it?
    "Panic not my child, the Great Yellow Father has your hand"--Larry Dressler

  6. #16
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Dish soap is an eye irritant as well and some can blind you! The Phtoflo family cannot blind you. The 600 and higher can kill you!

    Dish soap is a detergent, whereas Photo Flo is a surfactant. Get over it and learn the difference!

    PE
    Correct me if I am wrong, but the Kodak info says only the 600 will kill you, the 200 will irritate your eyes and the 2100 can "cause eye burns" -- which I assume is another way of saying it can blind you. But I also assume that they are referring to the concentrate, not a working solution.
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianmquinn View Post
    I'm a chemist and as far as I know Detergents and Surfactants are the same thing with different names. There are of course Anionic, Cationic and Zwitterionic detergents and they are chemically different. But in common terms I do not see where a generic detergent differs from a generic surfactant.
    Perhaps the problem is not so much the particular surfactants/detergents but rather the auxiliary agents added to dish washing products: among which, oily ingredients for anti-foaming or skin protection.

  8. #18
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    My poor ignorant self always thought that a detergent actually makes things clean, helping remove grease or other dirt, while a surfectant only helps water slide through a surface without forming drops which ultimately means leaving a salt mark on the surface.

    If you use a surfectant to wash your dishes you obtain that water slides very well above all the oil and sauce which remain on the dish.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    If you use a surfectant to wash your dishes you obtain that water slides very well above all the oil and sauce which remain on the dish.
    No, the surfactant reduces surface tension of the water -- this makes it slide well, but this also makes it slide INTO the stuff being removed. So, it really helps. This is why surfactants are included in detergents. You could say that it's the most important fundamental part of a detergent.

    But that's still just one of the parts. Surfactant still does not allow mixing water and oil properly even though it helps the process. This is why enzymes are added that chop the oil. Dyes and fragrances are added too. These additional chemicals, as well as the wrong type of surfactant, can pose problems to film.

    I think this is why a single, tested-for-film, pure surfactant is very different from a detergent, which is a mix of many surfactants, optimized for washing dishes, and other additives.
    Last edited by hrst; 06-29-2012 at 08:25 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #20
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Photo Flo is quite different than a detergent used for dishes or clothes.

    A detergent used for washing is an alkaline solution of an anionic (negatively charged) surfactant. It works to dissolve oils and minerals present on clothes and dishes. Extra ingredients such as fragrance and color can affect film by remaining behind. Emollients present for softening hands are probably not good either.

    Photo Flo and other final rinse baths are mixtures of uncharged surfactants at neutral pH, which is best for the film! Anything other than this can harm the emulsion.

    Photo Flo 600 is a poison at just about any dilution. It contains an ingredient that can damage your kidneys if ingested.

    PE

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