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  1. #11
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    I do print on MCC 110, and I do use the (apparently similar?) brown toner, I just haven't tried them together. When an image calls for a warm tone result I usually print on MGWT which responds beautifully to the toner. I use MCC 110 for neutral tones. It DOES respond in selenium, but if I let it go as far as a noticeable color change I don't care for the purple color. I stop just short of that with a slight cooling (to neutral from very slightly warm - as someone, I think Drew, commented here and I have found to be true, it doesn't seem to really be capable of a true cold tone.) I've never tried to split tone it either.

    But I do plan/hope to be doing quite a bit of printing in the next several days, some of it on MCC 110 and some on MGWT that will be destined for brown toner. If I get a chance I'll try it out and report back. I'm curious myself now. I've no idea about the sulfite.
    Funny, I just ran to the store this morning and got 10 sheets of Ilford MGWT (ouch said wallet). I printed the same negative as yesterday's, but this time on MGWT. Then toned it in selenium and sulfide (with all the appropriate steps in between). WHOW, what a response this MGWT gives to sulfide. After two minutes in Viradon 1+24 it had turned chocolate/red already. I washed with water (no sodium sulfite stop) and it's drying now. It looks, well, unique.

    I completely agree with you Roger, that MCC 110 is probably best reserved for neutral prints (it does respond well to selenium though, like you say; I see a change towards red-purple and extra blackening of the blacks and darker greys).

    MGWT is really the way to go for sulfide toning. I will have to play around with smaller Viradon dilutions (1+50, 1+100, perhaps even 1+200?) for a better controlable and thereby more subtle browning of the image.

    Seems like we're on the same track. Have fun experimenting, I definitely will.

  2. #12
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    To clarify (and the drop in the ocean was an elaboration of the exchange we had earlier where I said there had to be a limit or else we could put one drop of toner in 10 gallons of water and tone to completion instantly ) ...

    The reason I use it that way (with MGWT) was just that Drew Wiley in another thread here recommended it at 1/4 strength for MGWT. I followed his process and loved the results. That included using a water bath, toning for no more than 20 seconds and then dumping the print into the water bath with no drain time (which will cause streaking, it's so fast with MGWT.) Done this way it does continue to tone a while in the water, which is one reason to stop before it's where you want it. But it doesn't bloom or boom or whatever (greatly speed up etc.) It just continues a bit then stops, or almost stops as it will tone a bit more during washing. If it isn't enough, back in the toner with it. I modified this on my own, not having Rudman's book or reading of this "works faster when more dilute" thing, because it was hard to control with such short times. If nothing else, sometimes the print will stick or something and it will take a bit to get the tongs on it. Do not try to grab it with your hands, with or without gloves - heat speeds up the toning drastically and your hands, even through gloves, are warm and will leave fingerprints. Don't ask me how I know. So I went to 1/8th strength dilution and that certainly is slower than 1/4 strength. I make no claims (with MGWT, more on this...) about the speed of 1/4 versus full, which may be faster. I don't know. But I do know that 1/8th strength is about half as fast as 1/4 strength so I at least seem to be hitting that diminish effects point.

    I just toned an 11x14. A friend, and very good digital photographer, greatly admired one of my toned, mounted 11x14s, so I offered him a copy - he's moving away, and it's a moving away present, in part. Before he left he gave my wife and me his very first darkroom print from the days when he did darkroom. Anyway, I needed to duplicate the earlier print, which I had toned for approximately 45 seconds at 1/4 strength. In 1/8th strength toner I got a pretty good match for it with two minutes of toning, which I find much more controllable.

    I did mix full strength toner to try with Arista Private Reserve RC Pearl, aka (most people think anyway) Adox MCP 312. It responded in the weak toner but I didn't like it. It was an odd reddish brown that I didn't care for, and took a lot longer than MGWT. I think anything takes a lot longer than MGWT. I mixed full strength and got a pretty nice chocolate brown with 10 minutes of toning. I can scan that if anyone is interested. It's a cooler brown than you'll get on a warm tone paper like MGWT. The red tone I didn't like I got after several minutes in the very dilute toner. When I mixed it full strength I just put the same print in for another 10 minutes so it's hard to say if it's faster with one or the other. It's different, though.

    Here's what my toning looks like on MGWT with 50 seconds in the 1/8th strength toner, for a light toning effect I like very much:


    T. Allen Greenfield 1 - MGIVWT+Brown Toner by Roger Cole, on Flickr

    Here's the same paper, otherwise same processing, but toned for 40 seconds in 1/4 strength. Considerably more toning than the 50 seconds at 1/8th:


    New Orleans Courtyard - Toned by Roger Cole, on Flickr

    And another, my now wife then fiance, also 40 seconds at 1/4 strength:


    Alicia Park Bench - Toned1 by Roger Cole, on Flickr

    Those 40 second results look good for some images but were just too strong for others, and really short times like 20 seconds were just too hard to control. So for this particular paper I like the weak toner.

    One thing though - it doesn't last very long after mixing. At these weak strengths it is noticeably weaker the next day, and almost useless a week later. Tkamiya says his full strength toner lasts for a very long time. I did have that full strength toner mixed, but when I got no response at all out of Arista Silver Artist after 10 minutes I mixed a fresh batch - which gave no change at all after another 10 minutes. Now there's a paper that resists sulfide toning. Otherwise I haven't kept full strength toner enough to know.

  3. #13
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    I like your examples Roger. Although they all look quite different in terms of toning, they do share the same understatedness.

    My two prints from today (12x16", too large to scan) are way way overdone compared to yours. I will take your 1/8-dilution, twice-the-time method as a starting point for further play; will have to start somewhere anyway.

  4. #14

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    Back to the original question. I take the remark "noticeable discoloration" as saying that the selenium toning did not go well either. If that is the case, the paper may just not do well with direct toners. You should, however, try making another print and toning it only with Viradon New. Sulfite solution should have no effect on a silver sulfide image, but I would rinse the toned print briefly in plain water before putting it in the sulfite. If direct toning doesn't work, you could try a bleach redevelop toner. Those toners tend to give a more yellow shade, but a highly alkaline thiocarbamide redeveloper would probably come close to the polysulfide toner shade.

    Cole's wonderful examples show how effective toning can be. I especially like his ability to match the subject to the tone.

  5. #15
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    MCC 110 does fine with selenium. I routinely selenium tone all my MCC 110 prints. But I've never followed it with another toner. As I mentioned, 5 minutes starts to go noticeably purple in a color I'm not really after, so I stop after 4 minutes at 1+19, which yields a slightly cooler (neutral, not really cold) tone and slightly increased d-max. It doesn't change much compared to other papers, but it does change usefully.

    Thanks for the compliments on the brown toned images.

  6. #16
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nworth View Post
    Back to the original question. I take the remark "noticeable discoloration" as saying that the selenium toning did not go well either.
    Clumsy wording of me. "Noticeable discoloration" actually meant to say that MCC 110 reacts well to selenium (change in colour as well as darkening of darks).

    Thanks for the other suggestions. I was also given some (well, enough for 5 litres) slightly out-of-date indirect sulfide (I think) toner. This is a three bath kit, consisting of bleach and a two-part toner. The ratio of the toner parts sets the colour after bleach, from yellow to something on the other end.

    So lots of combos of paper and toners to try- could fill the rest of my life.

    I may try MCC 110 with only sulfide also, even though I don't expect much of it. But maybe "not much" is exactly the subtle result Roger seems good at, and his stuff is excellent like you say.

  7. #17
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    I was in fact looking for a fairly subtle effect. I don't like the slight green cast of un-toned warm tone papers. I wanted something warmer for some subjects, but far short of full on sepia toning. I find strong toning, while occasionally useful, to more often just look overdone. This is entirely my artistic judgment and taste and need not be anyone else's.

    The New Orleans courtyard scene is actually an "overtoned" one that resulted in my trying the 1/8th strength in an attempt to gain more control and prevent accidentally toning more than I intend. I meant it to be far more subtle, and have a more subtle one on my wall. But that's about 10x11 or so (slight crop from a 6x6 negative) on 11x14 paper and I couldn't scan it, so I made an 8xwhatever one that I could, and it got away from me a bit and became a lot more toned than the one on the wall. I sent that one away on a print exchange over on FADU. Most people seem to like it this way, though, so I left it in on my Flickr page.

    For the shot of my wife I wanted more full toning. The combination of evening sun and the wood of the park bench I thought would work well with a warmer look.

  8. #18
    sandermarijn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    I don't like the slight green cast of un-toned warm tone papers.
    Not limited to warm tone papers, this green cast. It wasn't until I started selenium toning my Kentmere fibre papers that I noticed the green cast of untoned Kentmere. Then I saw the green cast in 'old' Agfa FB papers. I can't stand the green anymore and tone (nearly) all papers by default. Couldn't go back to a life without selenium.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandermarijn View Post
    Sounds like you and Roger will have some more pondering and debating ahead of you .

    No, not really. We both have a method that works well for each of us. That's what's important.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  10. #20
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    Mmm maybe one of you could help me out, I started a thread somewhere else http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/1...gged-what.html
    In the past I never had a problem with toner darkening in my wash using Kentmere paper, now with Ilford paper my prints are all going yellow.
    It may be that I did not wash my prints properly, since I did them at night, was tired and possible made a mistake.
    Just thinking what if one uses a stop bath made of stop to halt the toning. Aren`t direct sulfite toners alcaline? Just wondering if the low PH of a stop bath would stop the toning?!?

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