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  1. #511

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relayer View Post
    as I found last formula with same time as XTOL is http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1370427 ? why you change to twice diluted version?
    I used the diluted version to save chemicals. When mixing typical developers, I was surprised and disappointed at how much sodium sulfite needed to be poured in. So I decided to use half as much sulfite and double the dev-time to get the same solvent-effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by craigclu View Post
    When I was dealing with Dimezone S a few years back, I had batches lose activity.
    Can you give more details about these failures? Did the Dimezone S fail after mixing it water? Or was it while it was still a powder?

    Mark Overton

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by albada View Post

    Can you give more details about these failures? Did the Dimezone S fail after mixing it water? Or was it while it was still a powder?

    Mark Overton
    In the powder form. I thought it was perhaps the large container that my first batch arrived in with too much air space (100g jars) and when it became suspect, I ordered fresh again and this batch was a darker color and very shortly showed the same behavior. When I ordered again, I had started playing with PG concoctions and was being told that a primary Dimezone S advantage was its stability once in solution and I drifted away, not needing another "variable" on the other things I was involved in then and PG concentrate based. I had been intrigued with Ryuji Suzuki's work which was what had me dealing with the Dimezone S in the first place. There was a bit of discussion among people testing his things back then about the color of their new supply, etc and concern over its storage behaviors. I just haven't gotten back to thinking about it until following your thread and progress here.

    I found some go-to combos from that time that I've settled into but get the itch to try some things recently and thought your Xtol alternatives would be interesting, especially with you doing all of the work!
    Craig Schroeder

  3. #513

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigclu View Post
    In the powder form.
    Hmmm. Out of caution, I've been storing my Phenidone and Dimezone S in amber glass jars in the refrigerator. After a year, they're still doing fine. But after your experience, I wonder. Where did you buy yours from?

    Mark

  4. #514
    craigclu's Avatar
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    I got my Dimezone S from:

    http://www.techcheminc.com/

    They were the only easy source for me back then and I could buy 100g quantities. I see they still supply it. They're nice people to deal with and have been a reliable source for things over the years.
    Craig Schroeder

  5. #515

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    As easy as Rodinal

    Alan Johnson had the idea of dissolving sodium sulfite into water ahead of time, creating a sulfite solution that you use over a period of one or more months. Using a concentrate such as 214D is then as easy as Rodinal:

    1. Measure 18 g/L (= 15.4 ml) concentrate into a beaker using syringe or scale.
    2. Pour sulfite solution up to fill-line. This works out to 1+64 dilution.

    For 214D, you would mix 46 g of sulfite into each litre of sulfite solution. If you wish, this can be stored refrigerated to ensure longevity. Quiz: Why 46 g/L instead of 45? Any idea how long sulfite solution will last?

    Then I had the idea of doubling the sulfite (to 92 g/L) and adding some sodium metaborate to the sulfite solution, creating an alkali solution. If you then use 2.5 times as much concentrate, you should be able to make a close clone of XTOL similar to the formula I tested back in July here:
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/1...ml#post1367335

    My latest alkali solution consists of:

    Sodium sulfite ..................... 92 g
    Sodium metaborate 4 mol .... 4.1 g
    Water to ............................. 1 L
    1L of developer contains 45 g of 214D (=38.6 ml) and the remainder is alkali solution (1+25 ratio of concentrate+alkali solution).

    The pH matches XTOL perfectly, but the developer is too hot (overdevelops), so I need to reduce the metaborate in the solution some to get matching curves when using XTOL's times. Or maybe reduce the amount of concentrate. So I'll do more experiments. Anyway, if this works out, then 214D can be used either in its usual way or as an XTOL-clone.

    Mark Overton

  6. #516
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    Xtol Concentrate:

    Back to the mundane,

    In order to avoid messing around with .05 g Phenidone I thought I would double the recipe to use .1 g. I have a triple beam balance that will measure 1/10th g. So my question now is does the 2000 mL concentrate get diluted to a working strength at time of use, and if so, what do you feel is a proper mixture/ratio might be? My process for developing 4x5 inch Delta 100 in Kodaks' Xtol is using a Jobo with constant & continuous reversing rotation and 4 Oz stock solution plus 4 Oz water (8 Oz total solution) for 1 to 4 negatives is all that is required and recommended.

  7. #517

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Osgood View Post
    So my question now is does the 2000 mL concentrate get diluted to a working strength at time of use, and if so, what do you feel is a proper mixture/ratio might be?
    I'm confused. Doubling the concentrate's formula will give you 30-40 ml of concentrate. That would be mixed into enough water to produce 2 litres of working developer (and don't forget to add the sodium sulfite). So the dilution is around 1+63 to 1+49, depending on the concentrate.

    Regarding weighing: The Phenidone (or Dimezone S) is the tough part, as you pointed out. For doubling, you need .1 g of Phenidone, and if your balance has a resolution of .1 g, then you might be off by half of that .1 g resolution, which is .05g. So a measurement of .1 g might actually give you .05 to .15 g of Phenidone, which is too inaccurate. That's why I recommend using an electronic scale with .01 g resolution. These cost only $12-15; search for "scale .01g" on amazon. Even then, I suggest measuring .1 g very carefully. Quadrupling the formula (60-80 ml of concentrate) means measuring .2 g of Phenidone, which is easy with a .01 electronic scale.

    Good luck,

    Mark Overton

  8. #518

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    Sodium sulfite solution available industrially is stable under normal conditions of use and storage but may be oxidized by air (section 10):

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...iVguir8UEyHW2w

  9. #519
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    I'd say Xtol beats the concentrate in those first two comparison scans both in grain and sharpness. The concentrate seems to have higher contrast or lower shadows eventhough the curves are similar and that makes it seem sharper, to me. I don't think it is anywhere.

    Now i see there is a second set of commparison scans so

    frame 15 xtol still beats concentrate in sharpness but one of the two has or seems to have better grain ..or different grain. Can't tell which. Obviously better in one area and reverses in another



    I have xtol I mixed in early 09 and it still works. Whether it develops the same as when new, who knows. It's been reused after pouring back into glass bottle kept chilled
    I still dont understand the need for a concentrate of xtol or amidol

  10. #520
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    frame 24 appears that concentrate has slightly finer grain but xtol is still sharper. everything seems equal otherwise



 

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