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  1. #11
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh B View Post
    That violates the most basic tenet of b&w film processing... consistency.

    This appears to be an excellent example of the old marketing ploy: "If you can't fix it, feature it".

    The underlying concept being that if you can't make something work properly,
    put a spin on it to make gullible customers think what they observe is "normal".

    - Leigh
    You obviously don't appreciate the benefits of replenishment which gives excellent consistency and these developers give the best results when seasoned.

    I've used replenished developers for over 40 years and it's the professional way of working, also ideal in many amateur darkrooms. I've used replenishment in both commercial darkrooms shared by 3 photographers and at home with no problems in all that time. . It's simple and highly cost effective.

    Ian

  2. #12
    Leigh B's Avatar
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    Yes, Ian, replenished developers are used in commercial darkrooms and in amateur environments
    where the volume of work and day-to-day uniform workload make that approach reasonable.

    It's certainly not appropriate for highly inconsistent usage such as the OP describes.

    As I said before, if the first roll and the tenth (or twentieth) are not identical there's a major problem,
    and that fact is not altered by Kodak's advertising budget or marketing hype.

    My opinions are based on 57 years of using one-shot developers, with absolute uniformity and consistency.

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

  3. #13
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Echoing Dave and Ian, replenished XTOL gives much better results than either one shot XTOL [diluted] or non-replenished XTOL. I have been using replenished XTOL for years.

    Steve
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  4. #14
    Leigh B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    replenished XTOL gives much better results than either one shot XTOL...
    Then as I said before... You have a major process problem.

    No pile of recommendations can rebut the fact that the first roll (i.e. one-shot Xtol) should be identical with the tenth roll.

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

  5. #15
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    They are saying that the 100th (or whatever where N>10) roll will be the same as the 11th roll but it takes the byproducts of 1-10 to get to that point and stabilized.

    I've never used replenishment but I do understand the point.

  6. #16
    Leigh B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    They are saying that the 100th (or whatever where N>10) roll will be the same as the 11th
    Hi Roger,

    I understand what they're saying. It makes sense in a commercial lab running 50-100 rolls per day five or six days a week.
    In that environment replenishment can represent a major reduction in processing costs.

    It makes absolutely no sense for an amateur doing occasional development.

    Replenishment is a slippery slope, varying with rate of oxidation among other factors.

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

  7. #17
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh B View Post
    Then as I said before... You have a major process problem.

    No pile of recommendations can rebut the fact that the first roll (i.e. one-shot Xtol) should be identical with the tenth roll.

    - Leigh
    The biproducts resulting from the developed film, which is contained in the developer due to replenishing, yields a negative of finer grain, higher sharpness, and a tonality that's different (and to some, more pleasing). It's only the first ten rolls that are needed for seasoning. After that a batch is kept alive for years or decades WITH completely consistent results.
    If you don't know how these developers work, then try not being so abrasive about them, at least until you try it for your self. Why are you so negative about something you obviously know little about?
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  8. #18
    Leigh B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    The biproducts resulting from the developed film, which is contained in the developer due to replenishing, yields a negative of finer grain, higher sharpness, and a tonality that's different (and to some, more pleasing).
    If the fresh developer is lacking some constituents that improve the negative, they should have been added at the factory,
    not through an imprecise "seasoning" process in the field in uncontrolled conditions.

    Of course you can keep solutions in constant use in a commercial lab for years. It's like the solera vintage of brandy.
    It may have been based on a solera from 1812, but there's blessed little of that brandy left in today's bottle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Why are you so negative about something you obviously know little about?
    My statement about consistency has not yet been rebutted.

    Consistency and uniformity of process are the absolute foundation of proper darkroom work.

    You're right, I don't know about the "seasoning" process with Xtol since I've never used it,
    and have never encountered any other developer that required such a process.

    I'm concerned that some well-intentioned newbie will get caught up in this Xtol mystique,
    and get totally frustrated before doing the first ten rolls of film, not to mention wasting the
    time and money required to shoot those rolls.

    I've read a number of threads extolling the virtues of Xtol over the years, but this is the first
    to mention any "seasoning" process, or inconsistency of early rolls.

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

  9. #19
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh B View Post
    Hi Roger,

    I understand what they're saying. It makes sense in a commercial lab running 50-100 rolls per day five or six days a week.
    In that environment replenishment can represent a major reduction in processing costs.

    It makes absolutely no sense for an amateur doing occasional development.

    Replenishment is a slippery slope, varying with rate of oxidation among other factors.

    - Leigh
    Basically you do not understand replenishment nor the purpose of replenishment.

    XTOL and other developer were developed to be used replenished, one shot, or unreplenished to give the user the option to get the exact consistent resulted desired.

    Labs then tend not use replenishment because the typical customer would not understand the difference nor the advantages.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  10. #20

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    I was a newbie (questionable if well-intentioned) to pick up on the replenished X-tol mystique.

    I'm so glad I did!

    Lyn

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