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  1. #41

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    You can disagree all you want, Drew. I've shown all the curves. They are very similar. I still haven't seen any data from you supporting your assertion Delta 100 is a long toe film. Further, the curves are flexible. You can give slightly more exposure and develop in something like XTOL which favours the low end of the curve, and completely eliminate whatever minimal toe there is in these films.

    In addition, I'd like to point out these films all hold full separations from a properly metered/developed zone I to at least zone XII and higher depending on development. I have used Delta 100 and TMX under extreme indoor contrast conditions which are much more taxing than anything encountered in harsh-lit landscapes, and had no problems.

    You don't lose highlights, even extreme highlights, with any of these films unless you purposely destroy them with extreme compensating procedures. If you want more pronounced shouldering for easier printing, use something like XTOL instead of D76, or use a high acutance compensating developer, or you can use Pyro. All things equal, TMX has the lowest highlight contrast, followed by the Ilford films, followed by Acros, which has extremely high contrast up to around zone XIII with a fairly abrupt shoulder thereafter. This curve shape can work quite well with a compensating developer.

  2. #42

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    Been there, done that, and still say you're full of BS.

  3. #43
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    I completely disagree with Michael's assessment. Those films each have different personalities and
    significantly different curve, recip, and even spectral sensitivity characteristics. Tomorrow I'll lug
    my 8x10 up a hill out in the redwoods. For the first two hours I'll be in soft fog, where the several
    films might indeed respond similarly, except for speed. Then the mist will either start breaking or I'll
    be above it, and all hell will break loose if you don't understand the distinctions. All of a sudden a
    steep toe film will render a completely different shadow response than a medium or long toe one,
    and in direct sun, the redwood forest itself can easily exceed twelve stops of range. I want a film
    which will differentiate between zone 0 and 1, not between 2 and 3, and still retain detail way way
    up, even in pyro. Don't tell me simply to minus develop either - that just produces mush in the
    midtones! You need the right tools for the job. Plus-X would be worthless in that situation, but
    perhaps very elegant indeed in the early mistly hours.
    To avoid the mid-tone 'mush', can't you just give more exposure to avoid the toe and develop normally? Then benefit from normal mid-tone separation and just work with a neg that's a bit denser?
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  4. #44

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    Yes and no, Tom. Depends on the subject. Toe characteristic can be very important. Since the curve is basically logarithmic, minor distinctions at the bottom can have a significant impact of how
    crisply deep shadow values can be separated. Push things up the curve and you might affect the
    opposite extreme. An old school straight line film like Super-XX or Bergger 200 would resolve a scene
    very differently than something with a more gradual toe like HP5, Plus X, or Delta 100. That's why
    contact printers and alt printers coveted these kinds of films. They have great usable range. Get up in the high mtns or desert with a deep red filter and see what happens to the shadows. Then try to hold specular glare in the same shot. Believe me, I've paid my dues to learn this. There are plenty of
    wonderful films to choose from, but they differ in what they specifically better at - and you can't
    just turn one into another - otherwise, the kind of selection we currently have wouldn't even be
    necessary. Everyone screams when their favorite film is discontinued. Why? There's a reason.

  5. #45
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Yes and no, Tom. Depends on the subject. Toe characteristic can be very important. Since the curve is basically logarithmic, minor distinctions at the bottom can have a significant impact of how
    crisply deep shadow values can be separated. Push things up the curve and you might affect the
    opposite extreme. An old school straight line film like Super-XX or Bergger 200 would resolve a scene
    very differently than something with a more gradual toe like HP5, Plus X, or Delta 100. That's why
    contact printers and alt printers coveted these kinds of films. They have great usable range. Get up in the high mtns or desert with a deep red filter and see what happens to the shadows. Then try to hold specular glare in the same shot. Believe me, I've paid my dues to learn this. There are plenty of
    wonderful films to choose from, but they differ in what they specifically better at - and you can't
    just turn one into another - otherwise, the kind of selection we currently have wouldn't even be
    necessary. Everyone screams when their favorite film is discontinued. Why? There's a reason.
    I've been happy with how TMY-2 accomplishes this. 14 stops.
    Last edited by Thomas Bertilsson; 07-27-2012 at 04:05 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  6. #46
    Richard Sintchak (rich815)'s Avatar
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    -----------------------

    "Well, my photos are actually much better than they look..."

    Richard S.
    Albany, CA (San Francisco bay area)

    My Flickr River of photographs
    http://flickriver.com/photos/rich815...r-interesting/

    My Photography Website
    http://www.lightshadowandtone.com

  7. #47
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Yes and no, Tom. Depends on the subject. Toe characteristic can be very important. Since the curve is basically logarithmic, minor distinctions at the bottom can have a significant impact of how
    crisply deep shadow values can be separated. Push things up the curve and you might affect the
    opposite extreme. An old school straight line film like Super-XX or Bergger 200 would resolve a scene
    very differently than something with a more gradual toe like HP5, Plus X, or Delta 100. That's why
    contact printers and alt printers coveted these kinds of films. They have great usable range. Get up in the high mtns or desert with a deep red filter and see what happens to the shadows. Then try to hold specular glare in the same shot. Believe me, I've paid my dues to learn this. There are plenty of
    wonderful films to choose from, but they differ in what they specifically better at - and you can't
    just turn one into another - otherwise, the kind of selection we currently have wouldn't even be
    necessary. Everyone screams when their favorite film is discontinued. Why? There's a reason.
    The film and characteristic curves are merely semantics. Surely composition and timing are far more important?

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Been there, done that, and still say you're full of BS.
    Been where, and done what, exactly? Even though you've presented no evidence supporting your claims, or even a reasonable basis for them, I still wouldn't go as far as saying you are full of BS. I never said these films were identical. I simply said they were more alike than different, and that they can all handle a long luminance range, with relatively short toes and a long straight line curve.

    Anyhow, to Andre - if you loved Plus-X, I honestly think you'll love FP4 once you get it tuned.

  9. #49
    RalphLambrecht's Avatar
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    yes, but that's the one variablepeople don't like to change. so, it must be the material or the equipment!
    Regards

    Ralph W. Lambrecht
    www.darkroomagic.comrorrlambrec@ymail.com[/URL]
    www.waybeyondmonochrome.com

  10. #50

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    Yeah, Tom ... TMY-2 is probably the closest thing we've got at the moment to a straight-line long
    scale film, that is, unless Fomapan/Classic/Arista (various relabels) 200 is suitable - that stuff had
    the steepest toe and best shadow separation of anything, but at the expense of mediocre quality
    control and wretched recip characteristics. In fine-grained films suitable for small format, you've got
    Ekfe 25 for long-scale work, but again, with a few quality issues. As per Michael - my evidence is the damn prints!!! The proof is in the pudding. But yes, I could make any of the mentioned films work - and certainly have - but optimization and minor differences are often what makes the difference between a decent print and a great one (given a suitable paper, of course). All those little
    things add up, though there's nothing wrong with working with a single film and paper either.

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