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  1. #51

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    Cliveh - don't know whether to take you seriously or not. Film curve defines what a film does. You
    can be "creative" in any way you wish. Certain people get paid to play a tuba; but would you want
    them to play at your wedding? Creativity needs to be matched to the instument appropriate for the occasion, or in this instance, how you want the subject ultimately rendered in the print. Understanding the sensitometry is integral to the outcome, whether one learns this by studying
    graphs and adopting the official lingo, simply by gaining experience in the field intuitively, or both.

  2. #52
    Andre Noble's Avatar
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    Kodak Plus X 125 (Developed on Xtol 1+1) on Ilfor MGIV in Bromophen:Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Kodak 125 PXP.jpg 
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Size:	148.3 KB 
ID:	54501

    Underneath her dense, black shirt she is wearing a V neck T-Shirt. Somehow the very subtle tonal change due to underlying T-Shirt came through in print (not visible in this scan). Also note how well blacks of pants vs shirt vs deep dark red on bed cover are rendered.

    If I can get FP4+ to do this and look like this then I'will be happy. I won't hold my breath.
    Andre Noble, Beverly Hills California http://andrenoble.com/

  3. #53

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    ... Don't hold your breath at all because there really isn't a whole lot of choice anymore. Give it a try; it will either satisfy you ar not.

  4. #54
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Cliveh - don't know whether to take you seriously or not. Film curve defines what a film does. You
    can be "creative" in any way you wish. Certain people get paid to play a tuba; but would you want
    them to play at your wedding? Creativity needs to be matched to the instument appropriate for the occasion, or in this instance, how you want the subject ultimately rendered in the print. Understanding the sensitometry is integral to the outcome, whether one learns this by studying
    graphs and adopting the official lingo, simply by gaining experience in the field intuitively, or both.
    With all due respect, people like Cartier Bresson, Gibson and Erwitt have made fine careers without being as technically oriented. Are their pictures no good because the film curve wasn't perfect?
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  5. #55
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    None of the 100-125 ISO B&W films I've used over the years has "given up" or "surrenedered" the shadow detail, that's down to how we as photographers control our film's tonality by exposure and development. That includes FP4, Tmax and Delta 100, AP/APX100 and more recently Fomapan 100, lus a few rolls of Acros.

    It's a case of learning how different films respond and making necessary adjustments to achieve the resul;ts you#re after. only the Foma films in my experience need significantly different development times.

    Ian.
    Right.

    I'd like to suggest to anyone wanting such gradation to try Delta 400 for landscape, urban and architecture type images, etc. Expose as 100. Develop in Xtol Replenished at 24 celsius for 6.5 minutes, very gentle two inversions per minute after initial agitation. Looks like a different film entirely, not simply a contraction.

    The extended red sensitivity of Delta 400 (with the other pan films apart from Delta 3200 do not have) also helps.
    Last edited by Athiril; 07-27-2012 at 11:08 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #56
    Athiril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    There is no "best". It all depends on what you are doing and what look you want. Plus X Pan was
    appropriately marketed mainly as a studio portrait film. It had a very long sweeping toe designed to
    give subtle midtones and highlight gradation. If you had a soft lighting ratio you would get gradation
    in the shadows too. But with strong lighting you'd have to resort to compensating dev to dig deep,
    and that would likely spoil the delicacy of the uppers. Not a very good film for direct sunlight conditions with deep shadows. The closest thing today in curve shape is Delta 100. FP4 has a much longer straight line, as does ACROS, though neither are true straight line films.
    Looks like an S-curve to me, much more of an S-curve, with more toe than Plus-X.
    http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/...2125850702.pdf

  7. #57
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre Noble View Post
    Underneath her dense, black shirt she is wearing a V neck T-Shirt. Somehow the very subtle tonal change due to underlying T-Shirt came through in print (not visible in this scan). Also note how well blacks of pants vs shirt vs deep dark red on bed cover are rendered.
    Are all of those things really important for your photograph? Either way, FP4+ is a very capable film, and if you learn how to use its qualities to the fullest, you will be able to get damned near anything from that film.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  8. #58
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    With all due respect, people like Cartier Bresson, Gibson and Erwitt have made fine careers without being as technically oriented. Are their pictures no good because the film curve wasn't perfect?
    Thank you Thomas, my point entirely.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre Noble View Post
    Kodak Plus X 125 (Developed on Xtol 1+1) on Ilfor MGIV in Bromophen:Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Kodak 125 PXP.jpg 
Views:	108 
Size:	148.3 KB 
ID:	54501

    Underneath her dense, black shirt she is wearing a V neck T-Shirt. Somehow the very subtle tonal change due to underlying T-Shirt came through in print (not visible in this scan). Also note how well blacks of pants vs shirt vs deep dark red on bed cover are rendered.

    If I can get FP4+ to do this and look like this then I'will be happy. I won't hold my breath.
    Attached is not a very demanding situation for any of the films which have been mentioned. FP4 is capable of whatever you see from Plus-X.

  10. #60
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    My experience with FP4 would be that it would handle this just fine too. You might need different exposure, enough to push the shirt up off the toe and then print accordingly, but you could certainly do it and not blow out the highlights.

    Here's a shot on 120 FP4+. Apologies for the dusty scan. Honestly, I had dried the MGIV WTFB on blotters, even though Ilford said it could stick. It stuck. I rewashed it and thought I had most of that stuff off, and it didn't show up on my too-dark monitor I had when I scanned this. I've since gotten a much better monitor and cleaned up the print. I need to re-scan it, but that will break the links I've posted to it in several places. In any event, I think it separates the dark fence posts from the other shadows quite well and really digs does fine on the dark values. Nothing special here and I didn't particularly take that into account. I'm not sure now what the exposure was. I tend to meter the dark areas then place on Zone IV, which is about a stop more than "normal practice" and would push most shadows off the toe, but it's just how I normally work. Box speed with that practice, developed in D76 1+1.


    Fence And Flower - NewOrleans by Roger Cole, on Flickr



 

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