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  1. #21

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    Hi,

    î live just down the road from you in Shropshire and we also have chalky hard water.

    You will get some strange advice from overseas APUGgers about distilled water. It seems much easier to obtain in other countries. At one time a still (since it can be used to distil alcohol) had to be licenced . I think that is still the law today in the UK - it maybe makes distilation an inconvenient and more expensive process, but I think there may be other reasons. Distilled water should be water that is distilled - can,t be anything else, yet I,m not so sure that is the case everywhere. There is also de.ionised water and de.mineralised water, but I suspect the terms are sometimes used interchangeably in countries with less pedantic labelling laws.

    The big curse in the UK is that supermarkets decided they could charge more money for the water for steam irons if they stuck perfume and colouring in the stuff :-(

    About the only place you'll find it now, at prices lower than Halfords, is if you find a proper old car repair garage out in the sticks somewhere. I found one the other week in South Wales. £1 a litre bottle for demin. I bought as much as I could carry.

    But yes... I only use for the very final rinse with photoflo and when mixing my own developers. A few litres will last me a long time.
    Steve

  2. #22
    Leigh B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    (you are supposed to wash the film very well to remove any residue of fixer,
    Use a hypo clearing agent like PermaWash and the total wash time from fixer to hanging the film to dry is less than 10 minutes.

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

  3. #23
    salan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Photo Engineer;1374130]As I said, use distilled!!!!! It is less expensive and is perfectly fine.

    Using DI water instead of DW is like using a cannon to shoot gnats.

    The only thing worse (more expensive and uselessly so) would be to use DI DW. That is way overkill.

    Use Distilled Water. Here it is less than $1 / gallon. You can even buy small stills to make it yourself.

    PE[/QUOTE
    I am sorry I am missing something as distilled does not remove inorganics like calcium so how does this help?
    Distilled is just as hard to find locally and getting a still yourself is (in the UK) met with GREAT suspicion.
    Alan

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser View Post
    Alan I too was shocked by the local Halford's price which was exactly as you have quoted. However there is something strange here as others who have recommended de-ionised water on another site where users are predominantly U.K. based have said that it is available in big volumes at quite cheap prices. Unfortunately I cannot recall the stockists mentioned. I had thought it was Halfords but if so I couldn't find any! Maybe a google search will turn up something although ideally it should be available fairly locally. Liquid is expensive when mail ordered.

    However if this stuff cannot be obtained cheaply then it might be worth checking your process. I say this as I too live in a very hard water area(the kettle calcifies very quickly) and yet I have never experienced
    calcium deposits. I use the Ilford wash sequence and then 1 min in Ilford wetting agent and into an air dryer.

    What I think is important is to risk drawing the film between your middle fingers after the wetting agent and then hanging your film up vertically. I have never experienced scratches in so doing. I have a fan dryer which may help. A hairdryer on the cool setting may help if you don't have a drying cabinet.

    The other trick is isopropyl alcohol with the wetting agent and giving the film a quick shake. I have never needed this but Les McLean swears by it.

    I had always assumed that the NorthWest of England including Cheshire had relatively soft water and is mainly fed from Welsh water which is quite soft. Maybe not but I'd be surpised if the water is harder than in S Northants

    Best of luck in your search


    pentaxuser
    Hi Thanks for that. I will try it. My method to date was to do final wash (with a wetting agent in it) and then hang up in the bathroom (not used now as we shower and use the en-suite).
    I had forgotten about using IPA, so I will try that.
    Cheshire used to be like Manchester, but it changed about ten years ago and the water is much harder and now beginning to cause problems in appliances
    Alan

  5. #25
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Distillation removes all inorganics and destroys or removes many organics. Particulate matter is left behind. From a volume distiller DW is easy to make and can be quite inexpensive.

    Deionized water is made by running water through a mixed bed ion exchange resin which can be quite slow and quite expensive when compared to distillation.

    The resin, once used, must be either discarded or regenerated, but a still can be kept operational for weeks or months at a time. They do need cleaning every once in a while to remove mineral scale.

    For high end use, DI DW is used for ultimate purity. We at EK only used this for emulsion making in the most critical instances. DW was used to mix some solutions and tap water was used for things that were not sensitive to calcium or heavy metals.

    PE

  6. #26
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    De-ionised water is by far the cheapest and also best option, at least in the UK, distilled water needs energy and that's expensive outside the US.

    Before deionised water became easy to buy or do for yourself the best water was double distilled and that was expensive, now you deionise or use reverse osmosis first before distillatrion but thats overkill for photography, except specialist emulsions.

    Ian

  7. #27
    salan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Distillation removes all inorganics and destroys or removes many organics. Particulate matter is left behind. From a volume distiller DW is easy to make and can be quite inexpensive.

    Deionized water is made by running water through a mixed bed ion exchange resin which can be quite slow and quite expensive when compared to distillation.

    The resin, once used, must be either discarded or regenerated, but a still can be kept operational for weeks or months at a time. They do need cleaning every once in a while to remove mineral scale.

    For high end use, DI DW is used for ultimate purity. We at EK only used this for emulsion making in the most critical instances. DW was used to mix some solutions and tap water was used for things that were not sensitive to calcium or heavy metals.

    PE
    Hi PE,
    I am sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you. I understand you background, but having worked in the analytical industry and working with equipment that looked for levels of inorganics(metals including sodium,calcium,etc,etc)down to ppt levels, distillation will not remove all inorganics. Boiling will not remove all insoluble salts etc.
    You need to either use reverse osmosis or ion exchange cartridges to remove them.Now I am sure that for the levels photography would be bothered about, distillation would be more then good enough.
    In the UK, things like DW are not so easy for 'joe public' to get now. It is thought that you must be making bombs if you want anything 'chemistry like' at all!!
    BUT I am not wanting to get into a discussion as which method is better. For photography, I would settle for some DW. In the UK a lot of labs went over to DI rather then DW because of allsorts of problems from owning a still and inspections etc. It was just easier to buy bulk from people like BDH.
    Alan

  8. #28
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    If you insist on DI water try here: http://www.culliganmatrixsolutions.c...FYNx4AodvAMABg

    This is one of many companies that sell the mixed bed ion exchange resins and kits so you can do it yourself at home.

    Making the resins require a quite sophisticated organic lab and lots of energy to make and then to "reclaim" after use unless they are just dumped. The resin looks like light sand before use and dark sand after use. You really must have a mixed bed of 3 types, anionic, cationic and organic to properly remove everything you need to remove.

    A proper unit can use sewer water as input and turn out potable water at the other end. If the organic removing resin is not used, then the organics (and odors) go through.

    Do what works for you.

    PE

  9. #29
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    PE - I work for a large company with DI taps everywhere who makes many and varied compounds (I'm no chemist and have limited specific knowledge myself) and many formulas specify not using DI water as certain things (colloidal silica is one I can think of as I write this) won't react without free ions to trigger needed reactions. Are you willing to illuminate me/others on this a bit? I've always had a curiosity about the mechanics of this. The synthetic viscosity improvers seem to have this common attribute to them as companies move to avoid certain silica in their products. Was this ever an issue with large scale emulsion manufacturing?
    Craig Schroeder

  10. #30
    Leigh B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    ...distilled water needs energy and that's expensive outside the US.
    Interesting point, and probably valid. Not something that I had considered.

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

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