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  1. #1

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    Comparison of Mamiya CMS 20 vs 4x5, 8x10 and other stuff

    I've been playing with some alternative films to see just how much detail you can get using the Mamiya 7 system. This followed on from the Big Camera Comparison

    http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12...ra-comparison/

    .. that I ran last year. Well having read about Adox CMS 20 I thought I'd give it a go with the same target. The results were quite dramatic. Here's the big picture showing that the result is definitely 'pictorial' and not just a lith film (developed using the Adotech II developer recommended by Adox).

    http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static...cms20-full.jpg

    Excuse the scratches - I wasn't particularly careful with this as I was only interested in a small section.

    Well the film outresolved 4x5 delta 100 (oh, and trounced the IQ180 on the way there) and started on toward 10x8 - didn't get too close but it was definitely trying.

    The amazing thing about the film that I was stunned by was the fact that it has almost zero grain and also no halation. To give you an idea of just how much detail it shows - you can read the engraving on the watch strap of my colleague Mark Banks..

    Here's a comparison of various microscope shots and scans..

    http://static.timparkin.co.uk/static/tmp/cms20-vs.jpg

    Tim

  2. #2
    Klainmeister's Avatar
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    Holy smokes! You have a lot of time and equipment! But glad to know those lenses are that amazing and the film...wow.
    K.S. Klain

  3. #3
    polyglot's Avatar
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    Nice comparison. It doesn't look like the CMS20 has a lot of dynamic range (shadows are going funky with tones falling into blackness that perhaps shouldn't) despite using their special developer.

    Pony Request: have you done this test with 4x5 TMX, Acros or CHS25? They all seem finer than Delta 100 to me, but I've used very very little of the latter.

    And do you have similar results in C41, e.g. with Ektar and Portra 160?

  4. #4

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    CMS 20 has extremely fine grain and high resolving power, true, but remember it comes at a severe price. The film has a very short scale, and extremely low speed, far lower than EI 20 in my testing. This film is in no way a substitute for large format (or small format) TMX, Delta etc.

  5. #5
    georg16nik's Avatar
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    Thanks Tim!
    I have been using Adox CMS20 for years. Its great that Adox decided to offer 120 format since last year and also larger formats as well.
    Did You exposed it at box speed? I usually shot it ~ ISO 10 but if I want contrast, then box speed is ok.
    Agfa Copex Rapid is another great film, panchromatic sensitivity and goes up to ISO 40 in SPUR developer. Available in various formats.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by polyglot View Post
    Nice comparison. It doesn't look like the CMS20 has a lot of dynamic range (shadows are going funky with tones falling into blackness that perhaps shouldn't) despite using their special developer.

    Pony Request: have you done this test with 4x5 TMX, Acros or CHS25? They all seem finer than Delta 100 to me, but I've used very very little of the latter.

    And do you have similar results in C41, e.g. with Ektar and Portra 160?
    No I haven't tried 4x5 T-Max, Acros or CHS25 (is acros and chs25 still available in 4x5). I have tried T-Max in 120 in the Mamiya and it got nowhere near the CMS20.

    I didn't expose for the shadows and as other people have mentioned, I should probably have exposed it at 10ASA instead of 20 as the highlights seemed fine.

    I have used Portra 160 and it's included in the 'Big Camera Comparison' test if you take a look. Not tried Ektar - might give that a go in the Mamiya at some point.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    CMS 20 has extremely fine grain and high resolving power, true, but remember it comes at a severe price. The film has a very short scale, and extremely low speed, far lower than EI 20 in my testing. This film is in no way a substitute for large format (or small format) TMX, Delta etc.
    Agree completely - however I'm going to give it a bash at a lower iso to see what happens. I'm not sure it would be that great with large format although the lack of any halation and also the lack of grain would give the strong possibility of being able to sharpen aggressively but that probably isn't appropriate for this forum :-)

    Tim

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    Thanks Tim!
    I have been using Adox CMS20 for years. Its great that Adox decided to offer 120 format since last year and also larger formats as well.
    Did You exposed it at box speed? I usually shot it ~ ISO 10 but if I want contrast, then box speed is ok.
    Agfa Copex Rapid is another great film, panchromatic sensitivity and goes up to ISO 40 in SPUR developer. Available in various formats.
    Hi George, What do you think the dynamic range is like when exposed at 10? And how do you think it compares with Agfa Copex Rapid in terms of halation, tonal scale and grain?

    Thanks!

    Tim

  9. #9
    georg16nik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timparkin View Post
    Hi George, What do you think the dynamic range is like when exposed at 10? And how do you think it compares with Agfa Copex Rapid in terms of halation, tonal scale and grain?

    Thanks!

    Tim
    You get better details shadows at 10 highlight are ok but You have to watch it, its a bit more demanding towards changes in development but You probably already know that. Using distilled water help to isolate issues, if any. I distill water for my darkroom entirely anyway..

    Agfa Copex Rapid tonality is better, no issues with halation, is a bit grainier than CMS20 but Copex is faster film.

    Last year there was a thread about the highest resolving films, papers that might be interesting for You.
    On page 6 Henning Serger joined us and shared some info from his lab testing of various films, CMS20 and Copex among the many.

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/9...y-paper-6.html

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by polyglot View Post
    Nice comparison. It doesn't look like the CMS20 has a lot of dynamic range (shadows are going funky with tones falling into blackness that perhaps shouldn't)
    The dynamic ragne is good when you learn the film to know. Here is the 135-version developed in Neofin Doku: http://tmax100.com/bilder/arkivbilder/moldefjord.jpg

    I get similar results when developing it in Rodinal 1:300 The developer from Adox gives me nothing but shit, so that developer i have dumped in the sewer. Also my tests with BTZS plotter shows me that Rodinal or Neofin Doku is the developer suited best for my way of creating an image.

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