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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Also Ilford MG4 matte- this paper is becoming a favourite of mine , it multi tones beautifully, without toner I think the paper sucks.

    Bill Schwab showed me some tricks with the Ilford matt paper that makes the images sing.

    Ilford Warmtone glossy- this is my all time go to paper but the two above papers are the ones I am using for my personal work.

    The Matt paper is a surprise for me , it really has changed my outlook on printing.
    What toners do you like to use with MGIV Matt FB Bob?

  2. #12

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    What are the tricks to make Ilford Matte sing???

    Ilford Warmtone and ADOX Variotone Premium will likely be my EMAKS replacement. The FOMA WT papers are too creme yellow for my taste.
    RJ

  3. #13
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    There are many ways to make MGIV matte sing. It comes down to toning, for the most part.

    If you print your highlights down a lot from pure paper white, you can get a lot of mood in the paper depending on how much you bleach. I like to use a 1:100 dilution of potferri + bromide and bleach for about a minute to two minutes, and then use either Kodak Sepia II, Kodak Sepia, or Moersch MT-3 to get a warm golden tone to the highlights. After I use Harman selenium toner, warm and concentrated, which further warms the highlights and really impacts the shadows to become both deeper and warmer. It honestly looks like a warmtone print once it's done.
    But you can also use selenium toner first, and depending on how long you leave it in, you can protect the print from shadows up into the low to high mid-tones, and then when you bleach your bleach is incapable of bleaching the silver selenide, and only gets the very highest highlights. This gives a much more subtle effect.

    Then you can leave your prints a bit lighter in the highlights, with just a hair more density in them than paper white. Especially if you edge burn your print, this is a really great technique with this paper, because the slightly darker edges still carry nice density post toning, but the parts of the highlights that are almost paper white look like they have an inner glow. It's hard to explain, but you get really brilliant tonality this way. Same bleach, and take the very lightest highlights back to where you're almost at paper white in the very brightest parts, and then when you re-develop the paper in the sulfide toner, you get this intensity to the highlights that can be so utterly beautiful for some subject matter.

    I agree with Bob that the MGIV isn't very exciting on its own, but once you start to play with the toners, you can get really deep blacks, and highlights that don't look dull, but rather glowing, alive, and full of texture. If you're really good with it you can get almost charcoal black.

    You have to try to experiment for yourself a little bit, play around with different bleach dilutions, and work your results until you like what you see.

    I have attached two examples here. One a bit darker, and another a bit brighter, to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails BTW 08.jpg   Big Manistique Lake.jpg  
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  4. #14
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    With help from Ian Grant , I have settled on a few scratch toners.

    For the highlights I use sepia toner.

    Bleach - potassium ferri and potassium Bromide... I bleach until I see some of the whites lighten.
    Toner - Sodium sulfphide**yes the stinky stuff*** the highlights go warm brown

    Gold Toner- this toner attacks the upper mid tones and if you pull soon enough without effecting the shadows one gets a lovely peach colour

    Iron Blue Toner- I swore off this stuff as I could not make it work and Ian's name was cursed many times*** Ian I humbly apologize if your ears were hurting over the last few years.
    Potassium Ferri
    Ferric Ammonium Citrate
    Oxalic Acid


    What I found out is that I was not washing the prints post toning enough and trying to keep too much of the colour in the prints, always with poor results... now I wash immediately on a galvanized sheet of metal to get the bulk of the toner off and then wash in a vertical washer for 30 min, halfway I turn the prints..

    What is left is wonderful tints of blue green on this matt paper..

    Just to complicate things you must know that I solarize my prints with a two bath developer system. This adds complexity's to the final tone
    so when I say the prints sing I really mean it . The addition of the Iron Blue and figuring out how to use it has opened some wonderful opportunities.
    The MG4 just seems to suck up the toner, and gives a very soft texture final print that is aesthetically very pleasing.
    So for some of my work it looks like quad tone and beyond.



    This thread has reminded me of a thread I would like to be involved in... As a practicing printer I am very adapt at using light and paper, but if you ask me how all this works , I am not technically competent to give you the answer.. I believe there is many here who fall into my description.

    Here is an Idea for some of us printers to get involved in. ... Lets ask Ian G,,, Lets ask Gerald K, lets ask Ron M....

    for example ::: Ian -I understand that a developer is made up of four main components... what are the roles of these components and what chemicals do basically the same thing??
    for example ::: Gerald- could you describe what PH has to do with the development process??
    for example:: Ron- when light hits an emulsion what happens??



    so Keith to answer your question I like the above toners, but cannot tell you how they work. Though I would love to learn more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Tapscott. View Post
    What toners do you like to use with MGIV Matt FB Bob?

  5. #15
    K-G
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    I don't do a lot of toning, only slight selenium to enhance d-max on exhibition prints. I have setled mainly on ADOX MCC 110 and Ilford Galerie , both grades 2 and 3 . The MCC seems to give the same deep blacks as Ilford MGIV with standard developers, but a slightly warmer tone. If you have negatives that don't require extremly soft or hard paper and you can do without split filter printing, nothing beats Ilford Galerie. Then of course you have the variations with different developers and toners, but that makes an endles amount of variations. Good luck with whatever you choose.

    Karl-Gustaf
    Karl-Gustaf Hellqvist

    www.heliochroma.com

  6. #16
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    You can also try the new Oriental Warm tone :

    Oriental Warmtone VC FB - Smooth Gloss (New Warmer Emulsion Formulation!)

    That paper get beautiful blacks and it tones beautifully.

  7. #17
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    There's alot of talk about matt Ilford MGIV here. I'm assuming it tones the same as the glossy MGIV I've been using for years? There's nothing special about the matt that I'm missing?

  8. #18
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Jepsen View Post
    Looking at the print Fall 12 Freestyle Photo Supply Catalog, www/freestylephoto.biz, I don't see Oriental or Slavich listed.
    They still list it online but it seems the 8x10 at least is sold out with a note to "call for inventory status" but nothing about it being discontinued, nor is it on their "hot deals" section where all discontinued items seem to be listed, including all the Fotokemika materials. So it looks like it's still made but maybe with spotty availability. B&H lists Oriental papers, some with lead times for shipping, some as "temporarily out of stock" and others in stock, but none as discontinued.

  9. #19
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Fiber Paper Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by brian steinberger View Post
    There's alot of talk about matt Ilford MGIV here. I'm assuming it tones the same as the glossy MGIV I've been using for years? There's nothing special about the matt that I'm missing?
    Only that it doesn't look as sharp and has the appearance of lower dmax due to its surface.
    The toning really brings it alive, and all of a sudden you get something that isn't possible with the glossy version.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #20
    brian steinberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Only that it doesn't look as sharp and has the appearance of lower dmax due to its surface.
    The toning really brings it alive, and all of a sudden you get something that isn't possible with the glossy version.
    Then why not just use the glossy version!?

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