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  1. #11

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    I think the idea would be good for the various formulas out there. Plenty of different formulas for developers etc with often no info at all. It wouldn't have to be detailed info but at least basic info. If nothing else something that would let people sort film developers into full speed or not full film speed. To sort paper developers into warm or cool. Maybe adding some papers that tone well with the toners.

    BTW it's just not that the chemical companies can change stuff they don't have to ship the same product around the world. The same name different products depending on the source.

  2. #12
    arigram's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I'll just do it by myself with whatever can gather from the net and my experience.
    I think you are just lazy.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
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  3. #13
    ann
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    arigram,
    rigorous testing does not equate to "just lazy". People who are very serious about their work ,which most are on this site, work very hard to determine what is going to work best for them. There are so many virables involve and so much is subjective it is's not pausable to create what your are suggesting.

    It is great that you are thinking and making suggesstions, but don't take it as a rejection of your person.

    On the other hand there may be some who think you are being lazy not to do the foot work yourself.

    There is always more than one side to the discussion.

  4. #14
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Such information in table form could be useful in the way the Massive Dev Chart is useful--to provide a few starting points for individual experimentation.

    Ultimately, there's no substitute for trying stuff out and seeing how it works for you. All the charts and internet forums in the world won't tell me as much about what paper to use as my own reference file of prints made on different papers and my own experience in having made them.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
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  5. #15
    arigram's Avatar
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    Well, Ann, you do have a point.
    I cannot do the testing myself. I only have access to two films, one paper and one film developer. Tri-X, Rodinal and Forte paper for example I learned about on the Internet and from the books I have. I had to make special orders myself to get the stuff.
    All I am asking for is opinions of people who regularly use that stuff.
    I mean, there are so many threads in which lovers of a particular kind of paper or developer or film passionately state their opinion. All I am trying to do is gather those statements that can be practically used, such as how does a particular paper react to toning or how different XTOL is to D-76, as STARTING POINTS not as a Fundumentalist's Bible.

    It may be simple for you to just go to the store next door you have been buying stuff for last three decades or try stuff out from the friendly "have it all" mail order or make up a developer yourself, but not everybody can do that. Most people don't have such luxuries.
    If it was not Tim Rudman's book on Lith in which he lists papers with exactly those details, I may never have tried Kenmore papers or seeked out the now out-of-stock Forte papers. If I did not carefully read Internet forums I may have never tried anything else than Ilford HP5+ developed in Ilfosol-S printed on Ilford MGD RC paper with llford MGD developer. Because that's all I can buy around here. And yes, I wanted something else.
    I just thought that a chart like that would be an inspiration to try out stuff and get more educated on photographic materials, the life-blood of our art.
    aristotelis grammatikakis
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    Real photographs, created in camera, 100% organic,
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  6. #16
    ann
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    that does make sense.
    i pulled out Tim's Lith book and checked on the information you are referring to and i can see how it would be helpful to you.

    We do a class that inables people to chose as many papers as they like and development them in about 15 different developers /ratios and when all is done spread them out and compare them to each other. It is hard to get two people to agree on what they are seeing; and this is were the difficulty lies.

    I will take another look at your chart and see if i can fill in some blanks for you, but again rememeber this can be so subject; as David indicate and took the words right out of my brain; the massive development chart is just a guide line , a starting point, just as Tim's chart are. Notice how many times he says "varies in processing. So, in the end you will still need to run your own quality test; but perhaps it would element special ordering ?

    I can't give you the dmax of the papers as i don't read those, altho, we could.

  7. #17
    ann
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    arigram, i have been looking at your chart, and really i am not trying to give you a hard time. As an example, you list Ilford MC as being neutral/green in tone. I never see it as having a green cast, altho,i do find Galerie as having a bit of olive tone until it is toned. Ilford will pseudo lith like crazy, the neutral version much better than the warm (IMO) and that is the huge rub some one else may get much different results.

    I am going to email you a hand out i give to my students, don't know that is going to cover all your questions but perhaps it will give you something to use when deciding on what you need to order

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