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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    jnanian, most of the film available on today's market is cut from frozen master rolls.
    You guys act like the film You buy new today, with exp date 2015 was made yesterday
    Average Joe's ISO 100 films keep well.
    Films like Agfa microfilms (PET base) never had expiry date, it was well known in the 80's that those film can hold at least 20 years at reasonable room conditions.
    Adox CMS 20 (made by AGFA) does not have an expiry date on the box.
    Anybody cared to ask Adox or AGFA about evidence?
    The interested parties could read the appropriate ISO standards http://www.iso.org/

    dude

    i dont' question whether or not master rolls are kept frozen, or if microfilms have an expiration date ..
    what i question is that consumer grade color or b/w photography film that is frozen "today by you and me"
    (obviously not the same way the manufacturers are freezing theirs)
    is going to be usable in 30 years.

    maybe it will be .. maybe it won't ..
    (where's christopher lloyd when you need him !)

    i'd rather just buy a bunch of film and use it, and replenish it when i get low
    than be pissed off in 30years .. i guess your stomach is stronger than mine
    Last edited by jnanian; 11-15-2012 at 05:53 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    dude

    i dont' question whether or not master rolls are kept frozen, or if microfilms have an expiration date ..
    what i question is that consumer grade color or b/w photography film that is frozen "today by you and me"
    (obviously not the same way the manufacturers are freezing theirs)
    is going to be usable in 30 years.

    maybe it will be .. maybe it won't .....
    jnanian, dude, ISO 18928 defines storage practices for unprocessed photographic films and papers, consumer or not.
    A good starting point.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    ... i guess your stomach is stronger than mine
    You need health tips?
    Natrum phosphoricum 9c, once every other month for 1 year.

  3. #93
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Thinking of investing in $5,000 - $10,000 of film. Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    even i would never buy film from the freezer of someone
    who claimed his / her film was frozen in a controlled environment
    for 30 +/- years ... maybe if it was just "given" to me i'd use it
    but probably not .. seeing in 30 years time cosmic + solar radiation
    will probably increase &c to change good to bad ( even quicker than it already does )
    if you bought a mountain of AZO paper, that would make it in full glory
    seeing it is pretty much the only stuff that seems to last, and last, and last ...

    this whole conversation is kind of funny, seeing
    the world is supposed to end in just a few weeks
    so i am just going to shoot my expired film and paper
    like it's 1999
    Wait the world is ending AGAIN?? Why this time??


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    ISO 18928 defines storage practices for unprocessed photographic films and papers, consumer or not.
    A good starting point.
    Interesting. Thanks for that reference.

    ... and it only costs CHF58! Since I don't have a copy yet, does it specify storage durations?
    Last edited by BrianShaw; 11-15-2012 at 08:51 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    jnanian, dude, ISO 18928 defines storage practices for unprocessed photographic films and papers, consumer or not.
    A good starting point.
    i wasn't able to download and read the tech publication.
    does it say that unprocessed film and paper have a superior shelf life
    of 30 years if stored in whatever conditions they recommend or that
    quality diminishes after a certain amount of time ?
    it is a well known and undisputed fact that cosmic radiation destroys film
    does this publication say the opposite ?

    i have never suggested that film and paper won't survive a long storage
    in a cold environment, or even in a bedroom drawer ..
    i have processed exposed film that was 80 years old
    and regularly expose and use film that is 10+ years expired ...
    often times the development procedures is not "standard"
    like processing "new" film in d76 or HC110 to get an acceptable image ...
    and most of the time people question what the point is because
    it is like guessing what is inside the black box ...

    the problem with this thread is that some people just want examples and proof
    of film that was stored ( for a long long time ), exposed and processed
    so they can judge for themselves whether or not the quality is still there,
    and instead they are given storage tips ... or info on film that was not even
    close to 15 or 30 years expired ... there is a huge difference between 4-7 years and 15-20


    You need health tips?
    Natrum phosphoricum 9c, once every other month for 1 year.
    thats ok, it was just an idiom, i'm good without big pharma

  6. #96
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Thinking of investing in $5,000 - $10,000 of film. Suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    i wasn't able to download and read the tech publication.
    does it say that unprocessed film and paper have a superior shelf life
    of 30 years if stored in whatever conditions they recommend or that
    quality diminishes after a certain amount of time ?
    it is a well known and undisputed fact that cosmic radiation destroys film
    does this publication say the opposite ?

    i have never suggested that film and paper won't survive a long storage
    in a cold environment, or even in a bedroom drawer ..
    i have processed exposed film that was 80 years old
    and regularly expose and use film that is 10+ years expired ...
    often times the development procedures is not "standard"
    like processing "new" film in d76 or HC110 to get an acceptable image ...
    and most of the time people question what the point is because
    it is like guessing what is inside the black box ...

    the problem with this thread is that some people just want examples and proof
    of film that was stored ( for a long long time ), exposed and processed
    so they can judge for themselves whether or not the quality is still there,
    and instead they are given storage tips ... or info on film that was not even
    close to 15 or 30 years expired ... there is a huge difference between 4-7 years and 15-20




    thats ok, it was just an idiom, i'm good without big pharma
    Give me a week and I'll post some images from film that expired in 1967 that WASN'T frozen... That should be worst case scenario


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  7. #97
    Andre Noble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    hey andre

    It is a GAMBLE that the film you buy today will still be good 10, 15 or 30years down the road.
    BINGO!

    I feel good about my odds that in 20 years time my Velvia 50 and Kodak Portra 160 will be rendering beautiful, highly useable images.

    To shed more light: http://healthcare.webplanet.us/uncat...piration-dates

    I know some of the few, mentally challenged will reply, "What does phamaceutical potency vs. time have to due with photo emulsions sensitivity vs time?"

    Oh Please!
    Andre Noble, Beverly Hills California http://andrenoble.com/

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianShaw View Post
    Interesting. Thanks for that reference.

    ... and it only costs CHF58! Since I don't have a copy yet, does it specify storage durations?
    BrianShaw, I will try summarize..

    Film or paper should be stored in environment with 40 % to 60 % relative humidity (RH).

    RH below 30 % might result temporarily brittleness and lead to unacceptable curl and possible emulsion cracking.
    RH above 65 % can damage containers (e.g. rust), cause labels, tapes and cartons to deteriorate and encourage the growth of fungi.

    Manufacturers recommend a maximum temperature of 13 ◦C for longer periods.
    Manufacturers' expiration dates can be extended by storing at still lower temperatures.
    25 ◦C is OK If storing for less than a month.
    Infrared-sensitive films shall be stored at −18 ◦C at all times.

    There is a table with temp specs for various materials and a few notes under it, the relevant one is:
    For VERY LONG STORAGE of all types of photographic materials, the recommended storage temperature shall be between −18 ◦C and −20 ◦C.

    Further within the ISO 18928 doc, there is storage room specs on gases, extraneous radiations, background radiation, mechanical requirements, medical x-ray film stuff, airport stuff about carry-on baggage, the well known ISO 400 barrier.
    A table with temperature acclimatization for various films and paper.

    Bibliography refers to SO 18906, ISO 18911, ISO 18918, ISO 18920 and some books and tech reports

    And.. some other stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    i wasn't able to download and read the tech publication.
    Its OK, You are not the only one..

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    the problem with this thread is that some people just want examples and proof
    of film that was stored ( for a long long time ), exposed and processed
    so they can judge for themselves whether or not the quality is still there..
    Well, as I have said in this (and other threads) there are ISO standards for everything and people who do not have experience should at least read them before talk the talk.

    I have verified myself how long film and paper keep under various conditions, some of my friends did the same.
    Also, I have purchased several ISO docs and scientific data over the years, You cant expect to scan info and put it all here or pull up my archives and start posting samples. Photography is a hobby to me and the last thing I would do is arguing with forum tigers, just because they don't have the experience or knowledge that I have.

    The above rough excerpt from the ISO doc is the most I can do right now.
    I run my own business operation and life is busy enough.

  9. #99

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    thanks for the info ...
    these humidity controlled freezer &c ... are these freezers and controls available for everyday people to purchase and are they large enough to
    hold a pallet of photographic film ?

    it would be not much use if freezer cost more than the pallet of film ! LOL

    lucky for me i have a meat locker, but i can't really control the humidity ...
    Last edited by jnanian; 11-15-2012 at 03:47 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #100

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    While replying to jnanian's PM, it struck my memory (old age) that last year I shared 2 shots from 2010, shot on a 35mm Kodak Technical Pan 2415 roll expired in 1985 (black canister, yellow lettering) from a batch partially stored in the fridge, so in 2010 did some test shots to see how it age. http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/8...-newbie-4.html

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