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  1. #31
    cliveh's Avatar
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    FP4 and D76 at 1:1.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatso View Post
    I developed my roll of Efke 25 with Rodinol 1:50 as suggested by Роберт and made some pretty good negatives and thanked him - I didn't have that much else to add

    But I'm very curious about trying Pyro again. I used it a few years ago with Delta 100 but didn't notice much difference in my prints, but then again I didn't do any real world comparisons. Now that I want to make some really large prints every detail counts and with the demise of Techpan I need to try something new.... adding Efke 25/Pyro to the list...


    Paul
    Pyro will be sharp, but grainier than moderately diluted solvent developers such as XTOL, D76 etc. That's the tradeoff. It won't do anything special from a tonality perspective. Stain density can also vary from film to film so you'd have to experiment. It depends on what kind of printing you are doing.

    Regarding slow films in the 25ISO range, they are typically higher in contrast and/or have a shorter scale. That's the great thing about a film like TMax 100 if you like fine grain. It will be as, or near as fine grained as a conventional 25ISO film, but with a very long scale.

    Regarding XTOL, it is only a high contrast developer if you develop that way. It is a general purpose solvent developer. You can get any level of contrast you want out of it. It gives good film speed and very fine grain at a variety of dilutions. Very flexible.

    You're kind of all over the map here. In your original post you wanted fine grain and a long tonal scale. But you're talking about all sorts of different films, Rodinal, Pyro etc. First ask yourself what image characteristics you are really looking for, and how you will be printing. Based on that, choose a film. Then, to build on the characteristics of the film, choose the developer. Then, it requires practice to get the most out of the film/developer combination.

    If the combo you just tried looked good stick with it.

  3. #33
    fatso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Pyro will be sharp, but grainier than moderately diluted solvent developers such as XTOL, D76 etc. That's the tradeoff. It won't do anything special from a tonality perspective. Stain density can also vary from film to film so you'd have to experiment. It depends on what kind of printing you are doing.

    Regarding slow films in the 25ISO range, they are typically higher in contrast and/or have a shorter scale. That's the great thing about a film like TMax 100 if you like fine grain. It will be as, or near as fine grained as a conventional 25ISO film, but with a very long scale.

    Regarding XTOL, it is only a high contrast developer if you develop that way. It is a general purpose solvent developer. You can get any level of contrast you want out of it. It gives good film speed and very fine grain at a variety of dilutions. Very flexible.

    You're kind of all over the map here. In your original post you wanted fine grain and a long tonal scale. But you're talking about all sorts of different films, Rodinal, Pyro etc. First ask yourself what image characteristics you are really looking for, and how you will be printing. Based on that, choose a film. Then, to build on the characteristics of the film, choose the developer. Then, it requires practice to get the most out of the film/developer combination.

    If the combo you just tried looked good stick with it.
    I was very happy with Delta 100 and D76 and used if for years, but that was when I was doing my own darkroom work and printing no larger than 20 x 24. I've 'discovered' inkjet printing from film negatives and love the control I have using Photoshop and the amazing tonal scale achievable with modern inkjets (I don't want to start a debate about which printing method is superior - it's a personal choice). I'm reassessing my film and developer choices to get the best possible results from drum scans. If I had the patience I would switch to 4x5 but I don't want to deal with the hassle of sheet film; I will be travelling by bike for a year to take pictures through out eastern Europe and need to keep it relatively light. I've considered medium format digital and if I can sell all of my personal belongings before I leave it might be an option - either way I will still be bringing my film camera So for now I'm experimenting with different films and developers so that I can make the most of my trip.

  4. #34
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatso View Post
    Hi Bill, your suggestion sounds interesting, how do I determine proper exposure ? Should I measure and expose for a different zone than 18% gray ?

    Paul
    When you measure and expose for 18% gray, it's similar to incident metering. That is a good way to get consistent results. Keep at it but increase your Exposure Index until you are dangerously close to losing shadow detail. Use great care when metering to reduce the risk, but live on the edge.

    If I was seeking the least grain, I'd use sensitometry to keep track of the Contrast Index. I would aim for a relatively "low CI" that would be expected to require a Grade 4 paper to print properly. I'd spotmeter shadows and double-check expected vs. actual densities on the negatives and then I would adjust my Exposure Index as needed to make the spotmetered shadows fall where I want them to be. [I am omitting where this is because describing where shadows should fall is confusing].

    I see why Pyro's a good choice because the stain that contributes to effective printing density in the highlights is grain-free. This may require a special densitometer to test (Darkroom Automation's got one). Another way (literally the best way) to determine effective density is to print step wedges onto the paper you plan to print on.

    My post here is mostly thinking out loud, not based on experience. Experienced Pyro users are free to say I'm wrong.
    I don't like to tease underexposure or develop to low CI because I personally dislike and fear thin negatives that have to be printed on Grade 4. But I believe they might be where you will find freedom from grain.

    In short, if the negatives that you weren't happy with are full, rich, dense negatives... You may not have to change developer or film to reduce grain. Maybe you only need to expose a little less and develop a little less.

  5. #35
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Recommendation needed - 'best' B&W roll film/developer combo :-)

    I thought the reason no one mentioned 25 ASA films was because they are all discontinued? I thought Pan F+ 50ASA was the slowest film still in production, sure you can get other films for a while from stock but inevitably they are going to run out... Other than that its all 100 ASA films.

    PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, is efke25 still produced?


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  6. #36
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    I don't know but I believe traditional grain 25 and 50 speed films will always be available. Sorry I haven't discussed them.

    100 speed CCG controlled crystal growth films allegedly give 32 speed traditional grain a run for it's money*

    It's too bad that slow films sell slowly. I know in my heart the real reason... It's slower to shoot, (requires methodical work), so you don't go through as much of it.

    (*I haven't proved to myself yet but am giving it a fair chance right now. I really like 4x5 TMY-2 so this drew me to give 35mm 100 TMAX a chance.)

    p.s. I work for Kodak, but not in film. The positions and opinions I take are my own and not necessarily those of EKC.

  7. #37

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    My favorite: Verichrome Pan 120 developed in Microdol X is really crisp. Also, very partial to Panatomic X.

    ~Steve

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, is efke25 still produced?
    Nope, as far as I can gather from this, what you find of EFKE and ADOX (25, 50, 100) out there is the remaining rolls from the final stock.

    The only 25 ISO film I know of that is in production and avaiable is Rollei Ortho 25 ISO , never tried it though, but if it is in the same class as Rollei retro 80s regarding grain and resolution it could be very good. Digitaltruth has some info on it

    Found a review here it may be something that the OP is looking for perhaps...?
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    "Nice picture, you must have an amazing camera."
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  9. #39
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Recommendation needed - 'best' B&W roll film/developer combo :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Helinophoto View Post
    Nope, as far as I can gather from this, what you find of EFKE and ADOX (25, 50, 100) out there is the remaining rolls from the final stock.

    The only 25 ISO film I know of that is in production and avaiable is Rollei Ortho 25 ISO , never tried it though, but if it is in the same class as Rollei retro 80s regarding grain and resolution it could be very good. Digitaltruth has some info on it

    Found a review here it may be something that the OP is looking for perhaps...?
    Thanks I did see that film before actually but it's ortho, so I would need an actual dark room and a red light to develop it properly wouldn't I? And I don't have that, I have a sink and a light tight Patterson tank...


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  10. #40
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Recommendation needed - 'best' B&W roll film/developer combo :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by ssloansjca View Post
    My favorite: Verichrome Pan 120 developed in Microdol X is really crisp. Also, very partial to Panatomic X.

    ~Steve
    Those are long since expired and unavailable I have some in 116/616/70mm but its expired as hell...


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

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