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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noble View Post
    I would not characterize suggesting someone save some money by buying a Canon Elan 7ne and a brand new Canon nifty fifty as "seeking silver bullets." In any other field of endeavor outside of "art" that would be considered a prudent economical move.




    Mmmm... yeah but you know about "f64 aesthetic or grand landscape west cost ideals." That's my point. You made an informed decision. My first job out of college was primarily concerned with moving product in order to improve the corporate balance sheet. I left that field entirely and went to graduate school. I am now primarily concerned with doing the best thing for the counter party... even if they aren't too thrilled about it. But I can be honest with people and let them make informed decisions. If they get ALL the objective information and still decide on a course of action I personally wouldn't choose myself that's fine. But in my experience when you show someone a $200 Lomo camera and then show them a sub $100 Canon Elan 7ne and a $100 nifty fity 10 times out of 10 they go for the Canon package. It's not even a contest. If some artist says I'm putting my Hasselblad on the shelf for awhile and doing some experimental stuff with a Lomo camera I say, cool, knock yourself out, make sure to show me the results when you are done.

    I'm sure if you were to put together a portfolio of your favorite shots I would find it enjoyable. But you have to realize just because it is spontaneous and creative there is a lot of knowledge and thought behind it. I know if you take a picture with a Lomography camera and there is some cool effect you will probably be able to decipher why it happened and reproduce it at some later point when you think it is appropriate. You will probably be able to also suppress it when you don't think it adds to the picture. And I'm sure there are tons of Lomography.com effects you can replicate for a lot less than $300.
    yawn ...
    the same tired arguments that film user user to crap on digital users
    but now you now crap on LOMO or low-fi users or people that don't do what
    you think is best .... use a better camera for less money, get a better image
    know the history behind photography bla bla bla

    sorry to disappoint you but i don't have a LOMO camera, i do have a handful cameras from smal to large, and ultra large format...
    i couldn't really care less about much of the stuff you suggest is so important
    and i don't really think you would like many of the things i do if i was to give you a portfolio of my images to look at.
    so while i don't use a LOMO i can understand what they are upto and think it is great ... and wish there was more of it.

    enjoy what you are doing, and do what you enjoy,
    and don't let your equipment be a distraction ... its just a camera ...
    Last edited by jnanian; 11-26-2012 at 10:19 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    ask me how ..

  2. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie Brim View Post
    I don't know. You seem to assume that these people are stupid.
    You are confusing the words stupid and ignorant. Just because someone is ignorant about something doesn't mean they are stupid. At some point all of us were ignorant about photography. Multiple very knowledgeable people guided me in my journey till the point where I could go out and get information on my own. I did not learn about photography from a skewed marketing campaign seeking to sell me overpriced plastic cameras. My causal conversations with a cross section of society tells me most people consider film to be low fi. Go on Hulu and watch the SNL from this Saturday 11/17/12 (about 52 minutes in with commercials on my DVR). Watch the Weekend Update segment. At one point you will hear what the general public's assessment of film is. After you hear that come back and tell me whether you think the general public is stupid or merely just ignorant about this particular topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie Brim View Post
    A lot of them develop their own film because labs are few and far between who cross process.
    Sam's club cross processes my 35mm slide film for $1.50 while I shop for 50 packs of Charmin. If I need to do regular C-41 processing of my 220 Portra Walmart does it for $0.84. Now I might be a "snob" that buys cheap Canons on ebay and shops at Walmart but I truly feel their everyday low prices are available to most Americans. Anyway one time when the Sam's machine was down I had to pony up something like $5 and get the cross processing down at Walgreens. That stung a bit but not enough for me to open a C-41 minilab in my domicile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie Brim View Post
    The reason that you're getting flack is that you seem to be mixing up the corporate entity that supplies film and such with the actual photography movement which is just a bunch of people having fun taking photographs.
    Actually it is the exact opposite. I criticized the Lomography.com marketing strategy and the thread was flooded with people claiming I am obsessed with Leica and I am a "snob." I think it is obvious to even the casual observer I have several very objective and rational criticisms of the lomography.com marketing strategy and poster after poster has thrown up multiple straw men instead of discussing the very real fact that if you objective is to capture quality images in a care free spontaneous manner there are numerous far cheaper tools widely available. This really has been an "Emporer has no clothes" moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie Brim View Post
    The majority of the people doing lomography aren't buying the cameras new from Lomography. You can get most of the lower end cameras on Ebay from the countries in which they're manufactured readily and all you have to do is search for the camera you want to see that.
    Doesn't matter. There are cheap Canons that get the job done better and easier. Can we not just agree on that? This isn't about art or a philosophy. This is about objective facts. I just don't understand why when you look at facts through the prism of so called "art" they all of a sudden turn into opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephanie Brim View Post
    However, I'm not going to tell someone how to spend their money.
    I routinely tell people not to spend their money on cigarettes. I hope in your eyes that doesn't make me a bad person.

  3. #73
    JBrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noble View Post
    You are confusing the words stupid and ignorant. Just because someone is ignorant about something doesn't mean they are stupid. At some point all of us were ignorant about photography. Multiple very knowledgeable people guided me in my journey till the point where I could go out and get information on my own. I did not learn about photography from a skewed marketing campaign seeking to sell me overpriced plastic cameras. My causal conversations with a cross section of society tells me most people consider film to be low fi. Go on Hulu and watch the SNL from this Saturday 11/17/12 (about 52 minutes in with commercials on my DVR). Watch the Weekend Update segment. At one point you will hear what the general public's assessment of film is. After you hear that come back and tell me whether you think the general public is stupid or merely just ignorant about this particular topic.



    Sam's club cross processes my 35mm slide film for $1.50 while I shop for 50 packs of Charmin. If I need to do regular C-41 processing of my 220 Portra Walmart does it for $0.84. Now I might be a "snob" that buys cheap Canons on ebay and shops at Walmart but I truly feel their everyday low prices are available to most Americans. Anyway one time when the Sam's machine was down I had to pony up something like $5 and get the cross processing down at Walgreens. That stung a bit but not enough for me to open a C-41 minilab in my domicile.



    Actually it is the exact opposite. I criticized the Lomography.com marketing strategy and the thread was flooded with people claiming I am obsessed with Leica and I am a "snob." I think it is obvious to even the casual observer I have several very objective and rational criticisms of the lomography.com marketing strategy and poster after poster has thrown up multiple straw men instead of discussing the very real fact that if you objective is to capture quality images in a care free spontaneous manner there are numerous far cheaper tools widely available. This really has been an "Emporer has no clothes" moment.



    Doesn't matter. There are cheap Canons that get the job done better and easier. Can we not just agree on that? This isn't about art or a philosophy. This is about objective facts. I just don't understand why when you look at facts through the prism of so called "art" they all of a sudden turn into opinion.



    I routinely tell people not to spend their money on cigarettes. I hope in your eyes that doesn't make me a bad person.
    Pointing out that 35mm and rodinal is lo fi to me isn't a straw man. You shoot tiny little fuzzy negatives that have to be enlarged. I'm sure you aren't stupid, just ignorant.

    It's just a reminder that you are nothing but a point of view. You have an opinion, as do we all. Getting ones panties all bunched up over what other people do is flat out useless, because you aren't them. You might think you are noble, but to me you come off arrogant. That isn't meant as an insult, take it as an observation. There are ways of advancing ones opinion without lecturing others. I don't agree with a lot of what you advance, simply because if I apply reductio ad absurdem I could look down my nose at almost everyone here, and that would frankly be ridiculous. You do realize that you are disparaging people you don't know, and generalizing a very diverse group? That's a big red flag to me, but that's just like, my opinion.
    Last edited by JBrunner; 11-26-2012 at 10:32 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #74
    DSLR's Avatar
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    Any time you say the words "LOMO" or "Digital", you'll get a thread like this.

    It's kind of funny, I sort of dismissed lomography as a hipster fad, but after visiting their site and seeing their cameras I actually want to try a Holga or one of their stereo cameras .

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    yawn ...
    the same tired arguments that film user user to crap on digital users...
    I shoot digital and I haven't "crapped" on my self since I was about one and a half.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    know the history behind photography bla bla bla
    Quote for us where I said "know the history behind photography."

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    i had a lubitel years ago ( someone gave it to me in 97? )
    Nice. Shows your level of interest. I BOUGHT a Lubitel with my own money years before I posted anything about one. It wasn't just some second hand cast off. I bought it AFTER I already owned a series of DSLRS, 35mm camers, L lenses, medium format SLR, camera phones, etc. I didn't buy it from Lomography.com. I bought it off a Russian.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    seeing you are hellbent to disregard anything but "perfection"
    We live in strange times if spending <$100 for a used Canon body on ebay and buying a <$100 nifty fifty signifies you are "hellbent to disregard anything but 'perfection.'" I find it amusing that this thread started of with people claiming I was obsessed with Leica and Hasselblad and devolved into people calling someone with a cheap used Canon and a nifty fifty an OBSESSED perfectionist. Who is the intolerant extremist?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    and don't let your equipment be a distraction ...
    Well it is a little distracting when the first time you screw in the tripod screw it destroys the brittle plastic on the bottom of the camera. It is distracting when you took out the tripod in the first place because anything less than extremely stopped down is unacceptably blurry. It is distracting when you have to spend a painstaking amount of time counting the turns of a knob necessary to advance each frame because you have to cover up the frame counter when doing IR (number of turns varies as you progress through the roll). It is distracting when you have to rack your brain to remember whether you advanced the film or not because the camera has no indicator to remind you. The number of f'ing blank frames and double exposures was very annoying.


    With the Elan 7NE you just pull out the leader so it covers the length of the back of the camera. Then you lay it down and shut the back. You turn on the power and the camera automatically loads the film, reads the DX coding and sets the ISO. Put the little dial on full auto. Now just LOOK at what you want to be in focus and the camera automatically selects that focus point. Half depress the shutter and the focus and exposure are locked in. Fully depress and the memory is captured. Repeat. Now tell me. Do you feel that is more or less distracting and spontaneous? How is this an argument?

    I can see an argument for the particular qualities of a specific plastic lens. I can kind of see an argument for particular light leaks. Although a $20 Canon off of ebay can be made to leak for a fraction of the cost of a number lomography.com cameras.

  6. #76
    Chris Lange's Avatar
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    Before we get even more huffy puffy over this whole issue, we should bear in mind that the demons over at the Lomographic society also put word out about this little bastard:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    There's more details over at the BJP, and while it is indeed a Lomographic society camera, and they don't have the greatest track record, this is the sort of camera development that gets my bits jiggling. Who was the last manufacturer to put out a multiformat 120 camera with interchangeable lenses for less than $1000...

    Info here: http://www.bjp-online.com/british-jo...ws-film-camera
    See my work at my website CHRISTOPHER LANGE PHOTOGRAPHY

    or my snaps at my blog MINIMUM DENSITY
    --
    If you don't have it, then you don't have it.

  7. #77
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noble View Post
    Well it is a little distracting when...
    Here, let me help.

    If you don't like those cameras, don't buy or use one.

    There. Problem solved. For both you and the rest of us.

    You're welcome...

    Ken
    "Hate is an adolescent term used to stop discussion with people you disagree with. You can do better than that."
    —'blanksy', December 13, 2013

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBrunner View Post
    Pointing out that 35mm and rodinal is lo fi to me isn't a straw man.
    I said the average person. I did not say JBrunner. The average person doesn't know what 35mm is and they have most certainly never heard of Rodinal. Also my post said FILM not "35mm film." I know you had to change that to make your point but you can't just alter the facts to suit whatever argument you are making at the moment. If you quote me do it accurately, please. I was going to answer the rest of your post but you mischaracterized so much of what I said and even added in some stuff I didn't say that I didn't think it would be fruitful. If you said 8x10 is high fi relative to 35mm I would say yes. That is not an opinion. It is a fact. The fact I shoot 35mm on occasion and have never shot 8x10 doesn't change that fact. And it doesn't make it a personal insult that you stated the fact. I am not going to go on for 6 pages in the thread about opinion, and art, and spontaneity, and live and let live, and why do you care. I will agree with the FACT you stated and that's the end of it. You have quite nicely illustrated the point that I have thus far failed to get across to some people. Not everything is an opinion. And what you personally shoot doesn't change the FACTS. Thank you.
    Last edited by Noble; 11-27-2012 at 12:06 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #79
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    What Does "Lomo" Mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noble View Post
    Okay that's one vote for not caring about the environment. Anyone else?......
    Noble, so do you get this mad at Leica or Hassleblad owners? They are just as bad as Lomo folks, they spend way more money on their cameras than they rightfully should, when they can get the same quality out of a Mamiya at a fraction of the price? (Not trying to start a war about this issue it's a point don't detract from it). A Leica made in 1940(or whenever) is not going to have as good a glass as even some 80's canon lenses and an AE-1 but instead of spending $100 they spend $2,000+

    Are you mad at them?

    And another thing remember that if no one is buying cameras the perception of the business is that no one is buying film, so film will stop being made, at least this is a way to keep film alive a little longer...

    I also would never buy a cheap plastic "Diana" when I can play with my Kodak no 1 Autographic and get the same effects (since I haven't fixed the bellows yet). But someone needs to buy, we know where to go to get a goo camera, they don't, and urban outfitters isn't selling used Kodak folders...

    Quote Originally Posted by kevs View Post
    Because public perception drives the market.
    Exactly...

    And thanks for the answer to the film question, maybe I'll pick some up for fun...(lomo film).

    And yes Kodak SHOULD have stopped making CAMERAS in the 1940's as someone said... But film of course they should have continued


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  10. #80
    JBrunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noble View Post
    I said the average person. I did not say JBrunner. The average person doesn't know what 35mm is and they have most certainly never heard of Rodinal. Also my post said FILM not "35mm film." I know you had to change that to make your point but you can't just alter the facts to suit whatever argument you are making at the moment. If you quote me do it accurately, please. I was going to answer the rest of your post but you mischaracterized so much of what I said and even added in some stuff I didn't say that I didn't think it would be fruitful. If you said 8x10 is high fi relative to 35mm I would say yes. That is not an opinion. It is a fact. The fact I shoot 35mm on occasion and have never shot 8x10 doesn't change that fact. And it doesn't make it a personal insult that you stated the fact. I am not going to go on for 6 pages in the thread about opinion, and art, and spontaneity, and live and let live, and why do you care. I will agree with the FACT you stated and that's the end of it. You have quite nicely illustrated the point that I have thus far failed to get across to some people. Not everything is an opinion. And what you personally shoot doesn't change the FACTS. Thank you.

    It's difficult to accurately quote paragraph upon paragraph of ranting. We're here to discuss what Lomo means, not disparage it. You seem to think that your point can be made with sheer volume. The fact is few here are buying it. The other fact is that it is totally off the topic. You can rant on for another twenty paragraphs, or perhaps you can figure out that the thread isn't called "Why I hate Lomo and hit the road if you don't."

    Most people could take the hint.
    Last edited by JBrunner; 11-27-2012 at 12:49 AM. Click to view previous post history.



 

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