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Thread: Tri-X vs. T-Max

  1. #71
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Someone in addition to Anchell seems to be smoking something and blowing out the smoke. One
    should be able to detect the differences between these respective films in a 5x7 print. That's almost
    a 5x enlargement from 35mm. I can even see the difference between TMY and TMX at that magnification. Not only the differences in grain but in curve shape (esp at the toe) are significant
    and affect not only real-world metering, but also the nature of shadow separation and micro-contrast above. Magnificent tonality can be achieved with any of them, once you understand them.
    But that doesn't make them interchangable. Each has its distinct suite of characteristics, which
    one can then bend by dev choice, exposure strategy, etc.
    You must be talking about me. I don't smoke much, but I like a good drink every now and then.

    I think you analyze prints at a much deeper level than most, Drew. I'm going to leave it at that.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  2. #72

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    Nope - wasn't specifically talking about you. The salt n' pepper graininess of Tri-X in most dev is
    blatantly visible in even a 4x enlargment on textureless areas. And it has way more toe than either
    version of TMax, which have a much longer straight line, but consequently need more accurate
    metering. Different strokes for different folks.

  3. #73
    CPorter's Avatar
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    How much toe is very dependent on the developer. TMX and d-76 1:1, straight as an arrow-----TMX and hc-110 1:63, upswept.

  4. #74

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    I consider 76 the upswept curve for TMX, and know how to do it much straighter in HC-110, though
    admittedly with a tweak (added ingredient). But you get the straightest curve with TMRS developer.
    This is what I use for color separation work. Regardless, the toe with any of these is considerably
    less than with Tri-X, i.e., always higher contrast in the toe with either TMax film.

  5. #75
    Harry Lime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    If it's a personal choice, there clearly must be some way of telling them apart other than pixel peeping or 30x40" prints. If there is no immediate difference, then why even bother distinguishing between them?

    Portraits of woman is 120 TMY-2, girl is 35mm TMY, man is 120 Delta 400 (cropped 645), and boy is 120 Tri-X 400.
    The pictures are all scans of prints on Ilford MGIV fiber, and they are at max quality level, not highly compressed.
    Looking at the prints, at 11x14 size I can't tell them apart based on grain.
    You don't need to pixel peep on a 30x40 print, but you do need to be able to see the overall grain pattern and tonality. No one is going to make an accurate assessment between two black and white films stocks that are different, but not miles apart, from a low resolution jpeg that is a scan of a print that has been tinted either by digital or analogue means. Judging by the amount of posts you have to your credit you seem to be an experienced shooter, so I am surprised to hear that you don't see a difference in grain structure on an 11x14 print between TMY-2 and Tri-X, which has just about the most recognizable grain pattern in the industry. Sounds to me like you are just arguing your point in which case you are wasting my time and I'm done with this thread.
    Last edited by Harry Lime; 12-19-2012 at 09:07 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #76
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Tri-X vs. T-Max

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
    You don't need to pixel peep on a 30x409 print, but you do need to be able to see the overall grain pattern. No one is going to make an accurate assessment between two black and white films stocks that are different, but not miles apart, from a low resolution jpeg that is a scan of a print that has been tinted either by digital or analogue means. Judging by the amount of posts you have to your credit you seem to be an experienced shooter, so I am surprised to hear that you don't see a difference in grain structure on an 11x14 print between TMY-2 and Tri-X, which has just about the most recognizable grain pattern in the industry. Sounds to me like you are just arguing your point in which case you are wasting my time and I'm done with this thread.
    Correct. I can't tell much difference between TMY-2 and Tri-X at normal print sizes. Do you honestly think I would say that unless I meant it?
    It has to do with what I process the film in, the technique that I use, and how I work with both films to match them to the paper I print on. If I was using Rodinal or HC-110 the difference would be a lot more pronounced.

    I am not here to waste anybody's time. That would be cruel.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Portraits of woman is 120 TMY-2, girl is 35mm TMY, man is 120 Delta 400 (cropped 645), and boy is 120 Tri-X 400.
    The pictures are all scans of prints on Ilford MGIV fiber, and they are at max quality level, not highly compressed.
    Looking at the prints, at 11x14 size I can't tell them apart based on grain.
    I've always liked Tri-X better...I've also always held the opinion that Tri-X had a "grainier" and "contrastier" appearance. However, there are so many variables to consider: how is it processed, how is it exposed, what kind of lighting and so on. And, I think Thomas just proved that you cannot tell the difference...

  8. #78
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Correct. I can't tell much difference between TMY-2 and Tri-X at normal print sizes. Do you honestly think I would say that unless I meant it?
    It has to do with what I process the film in, the technique that I use, and how I work with both films to match them to the paper I print on. If I was using Rodinal or HC-110 the difference would be a lot more pronounced.

    I am not here to waste anybody's time. That would be cruel.
    What do you develop them in? Xtol? Same developer for both?

  9. #79
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Tri-X vs. T-Max

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cole View Post
    What do you develop them in? Xtol? Same developer for both?
    Replenished Xtol for some, Edwal 12 for others. It depends on lighting and film. TMY-2 receives less exposure and less agitation to mimic TX400 curve.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #80
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Replenished Xtol for some, Edwal 12 for others. It depends on lighting and film. TMY-2 receives less exposure and less agitation to mimic TX400 curve.
    It is nice to see such a focus on the finished look and the adaptation of the "raw" materials to get there.

    My hat is off to you Thomas.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin



 

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