For many things, water is surprisingly good.
Originally Posted by clayne
But no. You can't beat, nor flog, a dead horse with water very well.
I use water with a dash of 24% pure vinegar for film, except when using a developer containing Sodium carbonate as alkali, to prevent bubbles in the emulsion. (Yes, I've seen it happen! Thousands and thousands of tiny bubbles destroying a 120-roll).
Well, one thing to add here. Alkaline fixers can be used with stop baths, at least TF-4 can. BTDT. And, alkaline fixers do not worsen wash problems with developing agents, especially if used with a stop. HQ is rendered more soluble in alkaline fixers and thus with the increased swell, they allow for removal of HQ in the normal wash time.
And, to quote Ansel Adams:
"To many workers, the stop bath is merely a splash of acid in a vague amount of water. It should be compounded as directed.", "The Negative", 2nd Edition, Morgan and Morgan, New York, 1962, p81.
Maybe that quote will convince some of you.
After 4 years of processing here in Turkey where I've no darkroom and little storage space I don't think using a water rinse has shortened the life of my fixer noticeably, but I top up replenish it anyway.
Originally Posted by clayne
Water may not be the optimal choice but it works well enough, I have very consistent tap water temperature (which I work to) and so giving a longer than suggested rinse is usual, my tank needs 2 litres to fill it, so the rinse is erring towards 2 minutes easily.
Some say you shouldn't use a stop bath with a pyro dev, I use Pyrocat and do when in the UK, with no problems.
But if they argue it's OK not to use one with a Pyro dev they can't then say it's necessary with a non Pyro dev it doesn't stack up.
You made a good point that water usage is less with a stop bath, I'd add that I keep mine made up in the UK so just warm it and the fix alongside each other.
It may be with some films stop bath is not the best choice, a water rinse is better as someone posted earlier, I think saying EFKE said not to use one, I've used one with EFKE films since the 70's with no problems.
So Ilford say stop bath is preferred, but water can be used, I take that line which is not quite as strongly put as your "So we all agree then: water is not the best choice? :-D"
Well, I offer a compromise. Mix your water with some stop bath.
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In answering Clayne I've realised why a stop bath wasn't recommended for films until the advent of 35mm and the first fine grain developers in the 20's and 40's
It's the high carbonate levels in the Pyro developers which were used then at much higher concentrations than say PMK and Pyrocat, dev times were 2-4 minutes. The MQ developers like D72 (originally a plate developer) also contain faor amounts of Carbonate.
So an acid stop bath causes pinholes
This has prompted me to ask the following:
Originally Posted by Photo Engineer
1. Should we assume that the stop bath makers dilutions are correct for both paper and film or to be on the safe side should we increase the dilutions for film and if so to what?
2. Can we assume that if the stop bath has a colour indicator for exhaustion then we can use it until that colour change occurs even if the answer to point 1 is to use a lower dilution for film?
It's been a great discussion which I have enjoyed.
Originally Posted by Sirius Glass
It is best if you just ignore this thread and let those of us who are interested in the discussion carry on from here.
this thread is almost as entertaining as the "deleted" thread
Everytime I find a film or paper that I like, they discontinue it. - Paul Strand - Aperture monograph on Strand