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  1. #21
    salan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    This depends of course on the price the buyer accepts. Furthermore one has distinguish between products that are standard, non-standard products for which formulas and materials and tools are in house already and products that have to be designed, materials or tools have to be made for.
    I totally agree. I was wondering lets say for example 5x5 in HP5+ As far as I know that is not 'off the self' (if it is then choose a 'not off the self format'), how many orders would Ilford have to get to make it worth while doing a 'run' I understand that there are so many variables but there must be some 'number that they start to think about doing a run.
    Alan

  2. #22
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    Another problem is one which has been discussed in some previous threads on this general topic. When a company is trying to run huge high capacity machines at a small fraction of their maximum output, the overhead becomes a higher percentage of the unit product cost. Among other things, this could mean reducing continuous runs to occasional batch runs which creates all sorts of potential waste from the start-up and process tuning, plus shutdown and cleanup. And then the company is between a rock and a hard place, as replacing the machine with a smaller one could cost an outrageous sum which stockholders would run away from in what appears to be a declining market.

  3. #23

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    Indeed. It is important to consider "fully loaded" costs when comparing the unit cost of production to the unit retail price. In addition to direct labour and materials, some fraction of every other cost of running Ilford's day to day operations must be allocated to the cost of making a roll of film. This includes everything from real estate costs (rent etc) to indirect salaries to marketing to customer service. Some costs are fixed, some are variable, etc.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DWThomas View Post
    I...We "summer helpers" got a raise in August because the minimum wage went up -- to $1.64 per hour! Now before you laugh too hard, that would buy about six gallons of regular petrol at the time!
    I remember pumping gas (before self-serve) at $1.65/hour during the first "gas crisis" (1974?)...the price had shot to to 50 cents a gallon and we were the cheapest gas in town.

    From what I have read, making film is as much art as it is science and engineering. And good art is expensive.

    Vaughn
    At least with LF landscape, a bad day of photography can still be a good day of exercise.

  5. #25

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    The OP seems to confuse the concept of mole with mass. The mole is a just a unitless number equal to 6.02 X 1023. In order to speak of a mass you have to multiple this number by the mass of a silver atom. In this case a gram mole of silver would weight 107.9 grams. So it is perfectly possible to speak of gram moles, kilogram moles even pound moles. Perhaps this misunderstanding leads him to believe that the amount of silver in film is not important.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 01-17-2013 at 10:18 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon R Galley View Post
    Dear Silvergrahm,

    Your 'good authority' has ' very bad information'

    I will save you a calculation or two....


    ( Excluding waste etc ) you get 17.58 rolls of 135 - 36 per m2 of parent roll, 26.37 rolls for 24 exp and 19.55 rolls of 120 film per m2.


    Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
    Wait, what? I said 1600 sqft per mole of metallic silver.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    The OP seems to confuse the concept of mole with mass. The mole is a just a unitless number equal to 6.02 X 1023. In order to speak of a mass you have to multiple this number by the mass of a silver atom. In this case a gram mole of silver would weight 107.9 grams. So it is perfectly possible to speak of gram moles, kilogram moles even pound moles. Perhaps this misunderstanding leads him to believe that the amount of silver in film is not important.
    . I said one mole of silver is about 107 grams. If silver is slightly less than a dollar then one mole of silver spread across 1600sqft will be ~$100, right?

    And in any case my real question is, what is the price breakdown for a roll of film?
    Last edited by silvergrahm; 01-17-2013 at 11:52 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by silvergrahm View Post
    . I said one mole of silver is about 107 grams.
    Sorry I didn't catch that. However it is best to use the term gram mole to avoid any confusion. Chemists when speaking to other chemists may say mole knowing that they will not be misunderstood. Still not a good idea. However, chemical engineers will say pound moles, kilogram moles or ton moles since these are the weights that they deal witn.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 01-17-2013 at 12:28 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  9. #29
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    If you are a photographer selling artwork, the cost of the film is a very insignificant part of your expenses. I don't know if it's the age of the internet, but this entitlement mentality that comes from "free" news, "free" software, etc. is frightening.

    In my portrait studio, I currently charge $65 for a mounted 5x7, and people happily pay it. Why? Because they are paying for the content of the image that is printed on that 5x7, not for the raw materials used to produce it. They are paying for emotion, for memories, and they value that greatly. Some people, of course, say "well, crap, I can make my own photos for a lot less than that!" To which I would say "yes, but you can't make MY photographs." That's the difference.

    When you buy a roll of film, you are paying not only for the equipment used to make it, but also for the brainpower needed to design it, quality control it, box it, ship it, etc. which is significantly more expensive than the equipment.

    Some of us, I am sure, can make our own film or paper if we wanted to. Not me, but even if I could, why bother? You can buy a sheet of 4x5 film for $1.50 or less. A 4x5 contact print on Lodima (the most expensive paper currently available) will cost a whopping $0.65. It's a lot cheaper than golf. Last time I played, it was $75. That's 20 rolls of HP5!
    Parker Smith Photography, Inc.
    Atlanta, GA

    Commercial & Fine Art Photography
    Portrait Photography

  10. #30
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerSmithPhoto View Post
    If you are a photographer selling artwork, the cost of the film is a very insignificant part of your expenses. I don't know if it's the age of the internet, but this entitlement mentality that comes from "free" news, "free" software, etc. is frightening.
    The same time we here at Apug are offering for free a whole lot of information. Outside this internet thing people would have to pay money for such tutorials.

    And many of us paid a lot of money to gain that knowledge (trainings, books etc.)

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