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  1. #21
    gainer's Avatar
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    There is a middle ground. If you dissolve the phenidone and ascorbic acid in propylene glycol to make a stock solution, you can use it with TEA or any other alkali that turns you on. If you like the results you get with TEA, you can mix it with the glycol stock to form a new single solution stock without losing any storage life and without the discoloration that comes from heating TEA too much. Instead of 1+50, use 1+25.
    Gadget Gainer

  2. #22

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    There may be something to it. At www.microessentiallab.com you will
    find an antifreeze test paper; I think a ph paper. When properly used,
    in a radiator, it disintegrates.

    I think I'll order some calibration buffers for my new Milwaukee SM102
    temperature and ph meter; two probes! Also some of their narrow 0.2
    range papers and hypo test paper. Dan

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gainer
    I think that BS about the propylene glycol becoming more poisonous than the ethylene is propaganda. I would like to hear from a professional chemist about the veracity of that statement.

    So would I. The auto parts dealer who told me this was facing the real-world effects of that reported quality of propylene glycol-- he couldn't sell it. He sold me his last gallon very cheaply because he was not going to stock it any more. The reason he gave was that the garages, gas stations, and others that change anti-freeze for people were having trouble getting the disposal companies they used to dispose of it.

    It may well be pure marketing assassination on the part of the ethylene glycol makers, but whatever, it has apparently worked to dissuade dealers from stocking the propylene stuff.

    Thanks for the tip about using TEA with the propylene stock; hadn't thought of that.

    Larry

  4. #24

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    Gee whiz! Somebody better tell the EPA!

    Seriously, lots of folks are using polyethylene glycol in food and cosmetic applications - with EPA approval.

    Check out the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) on Polyethylene Glycol and compare them against the MSDS's on Ethylene Glycol and Diethylene Glycol.
    Tom Hoskinson
    ______________________________

    Everything is analog - even digital :D

  5. #25

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    Ethylene glycol and thanks

    Ok so I just made my first 4x5 negs in Maniacs soup. I dissolved the phenidone in iso-propyl alcohol because that's what I had. Just took 4 shots each on tri-x and hp-5. Developed for diffrent times. I am unduly impressed! This was so simple I was seriously doubting that I could actually make negatives. On my initial impression they are SHARPER than XTOL. I can see it no question about it.The negatives are beautiful and I will proof them tonight to nail down my times. I went to the autoparts store and found Ethylene glycol-can I use this instead of the propyleneglycol?
    On a more serious note anyone who hasn't tried one of these developers is missing the boat. I'm mixing 3 ingredients and getting great negatives. Not only that; the solution is fresh everytime I make it. I NEVER had Xtol failure but this is easier to me. Do yourselves a favor and try one the variations for yourself
    Again-I want to thank Maniac,Mr. Gainer, Jdef, and everyone and anyone who has contibuted to this and the other threads about these wonderful and EASY developers!!!
    Regards Peter

  6. #26

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    Kudos

    JDEF-you are absolutely right. Besides the fact that the Xtol is costing almost $10 a package Using it 1:1 it goes fast with sheet film. I just finished the tests with Hp-5 and Jand C 100. All look promising. I think I'll just break down and order some TEA. The iso-propyl works fine but I need to mix larger batches and don't want to experience failure.
    Regards Peter

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdef
    Peter,

    I'm glad that your developer is working for you. I am as amazed as you are at the elegance and simplicity of Pat Gainer's developers, and it is with him that the credit lies. These ascorbate developers, in all of their incarnations, are just the tip of Pat's iceberg of ideas and contributions to photography, and darkroom work. His innovations come at a time in the history of the medium when the major research in the field is drying up, and many photographers have lost confidence in the major manufacturers' willingness to continue production of the chemicals and materials that we depend on. Pat has reinforced my instinct to challenge assumptions, and has taught me more about darkroom work than any other single source. For that, I am eternally grateful.

    Jay

    Couldn't agree more, Jay. Gainer is the guru, no question about it. Any tinkering I've done with his formulas is just that, tinkering. In fact, on many of my neg files from the early days of tinkering, before I got around to a simpler nomenclature, I used to record my development info as "Gainer C." So my heirs who will have to wade through volumes of negs are going to wonder what a Gainer C is, but it will be Pat's monument. Those of us without real scientific knowlege of photochemistry are seriously in debt to people like Pat and Richard Koppow and and a few others. And Peter, I'm happy your experiments worked out so well.

    Larry

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by peters
    I went to the autoparts store and found Ethylene glycol-can I use this instead of the propyleneglycol?

    Regards Peter
    Yes, you can use ethylene glycol, Peter, though the propylene is a safer product and doesn't foul the environment.

    I'm sticking with isopropyl alcohol (91%) for two reasons: the environmental one and convenience to suit my natural laziness. No heating involved in the mixing process, and it's always available at the drug store.

    The purported liability of alcohol--that it doesn't preserve Phenidone as well as the glycols--is a moot point in my case. I mix it in 100 ml batches, which is enough for 25 rolls of 120 film (or the equivalent in sheet film) when used as a one-shot. Actually it is capable of processing more. I have done as many as six rolls of 120 film in one batch of developer, in three runs (two-reel tank) increasing the time by 25% for the second and third runs. The last rolls were as well-developed as the first. The stock will keep its potency for at least 6 months, so I don't worry about whether the glycols will preserve it longer.


    Larry

  9. #29
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    I think the isopropanol in the various brands of gasoline antifreeze and drying additives is more water free than the 91% from the drugstore, at least until you open the bottle. It is also available as methanol. Look on the label to see which it is. I have a batch of ascorbic acid and phenidone stock in methanol from the auto parts store that is still OK after several weeks in a 100 ml bottle with more than half gone. There was no real heating needed for solution, only a mild warming. From what you say about the rate at which you use developer, this might be a good thing.
    Gadget Gainer

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine-iac
    In PC-TEA, the only difference is the TEA itself as the activator. The amounts of Phenidone and Vitamin C remain the same. I can't tell the difference in my negs at 11 X14 enlargements in terms of grain or tonality. So for me, the teaspoon of Kodalk is quicker and easier than making up the TEA solution.

    Larry
    I am very interested in PC-TEA (I have been for a while) but am unable to get TEA in the UK easily and was fascinated to read this thread from the archives about a similar version that did not require the TEA.

    I was wondering about a couple of things:

    1. Since the thread was written how are people getting on with this non-TEA PC developer? I am particularly interested in using it with FP4+ as I have heard that it is the closest thing to my dearly departed Paterson Acutol!

    2. I am confused by the seemingly different ratios of Phenidone and Vit C in the non TEA recipe to the original TEA recipe. Apologies if I am making a mathematical mistake as numbers are not my strong point(!) but as I understand it in PC-TEA the mixture is 9 grams of Vit C to 0.225 grams of Phenidone whereas the non-TEA recipe is 4grams of Vit C to 0.04 grams of Phenidone. Is the different ratio relevant or perhaps not really given the the other components of each developer (TEA versus water and kodalk)?

    3. And finally, are there any people in the UK using these sorts of developers?

    Many thanks!

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