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  1. #11
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M Carter View Post
    Thanks for all the replies everyone.

    But images 2 and 3 - I had trouble wrapping my mind around bromide drag "printing" such a sharp image. Got out the polaroid back and some FP3000.

    That particular lens does indeed have shutter issues that will require hospitalization. Sticking open too long or staying open until the shutter is re-cocked. (Anyone know a good Mamiya repair guy??)

    I get it that there's some 'anti-stand' sentiment amongst the purists, but trying all of these things teaches me monumentally more than reading about them. After shooting commercially for decades (primarily E6 and now digital) I'm still in pleasant shock regarding the possibilities of B&W negs & processing. (I came up as an art director with just high school photo classes and learned much of what I know on-set - started shooting in my garage to save $$ on my freelance work and within a few years had a studio and was shooting for national brands - never got the college-level photo education!) I told my wife last night, "Lighting and composition, yeah, I'm a 51 year old commercial shooter... E6, used to have a fairly encyclopedic knowledge of exposure and proofing - B&W and I'm 20 again". I always thought the "Zone System" had to do with football...

    So, I'm trying to do this right, and focusing on the availability of a wide tonal range without relying on printing filters as a basis. This much new info should stave off alzheimer's for a couple years at least! And this forum's freakin' priceless. Thanks again.

    (Now if i can just get that lens fixed... it paid a lot of rent in the 90's...)
    Too bad you're in Dallas or I'd beg to be an assistant, I can't wrap my head around how to get commercial work... It's frustrating and inspiring all at once to hear a whirlwind success story like yours.

  2. #12

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    Speaking for myself only, I am NOT anti-stand. I don't really care what you or anyone else do for personal projects.

    My suggestion is based on the fact that for this test, your result is showing possible development issues, and stand development can cause these issues. Therefore, it makes sense to me, for a testing purpose, to do what the manufacturer says and eliminate one variable. Once you know that's not the cause, you can go back to whatever you prefer to do.
    Develop, stop, fix.... wait.... where's my film?

  3. #13
    M Carter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    Too bad you're in Dallas or I'd beg to be an assistant, I can't wrap my head around how to get commercial work... It's frustrating and inspiring all at once to hear a whirlwind success story like yours.
    It was a ten-year whirlwind, from agency creative to studio; I think it helped that I was a marketing-minded guy. Back then we'd get marker layouts, and later on computer-made comps. I'd be discussing the shoot and say "if your headline said this" or "you're talking to two different markets, split this into two ads"... I'd end up getting the shoot, and then the next go-round writing and designing the project as well. Ended up sort of a one-man agency with in-house photography, and got photo and illustration work from smaller agencies. Back then it was much more about living in a large market than it may be today though. But I was doing photoshop from version 2 - when it came on a pile of floppies - and became a go-to guy for the color separators when they were stumped with a retouch (my college days were all about illustration so I understood making things look "real"). And the good separation shops knew everybody. I'd do their marketing pieces for scan trade-offs, and I was "the market" so I knew what to say & sell, and I'd get a lot of referrals that way.

    I did a lot of promo mailings and follow-ups - I think I got 3 long term clients from that in a decade. You really needed a rep to get any traction. I've never gotten a single lead from my web site either - it's all referrals.

    I really don't push shooting nearly as much these days - digital has thrown so many people into the market now. What used to take a year of testing and learning, to get you to where knowing what the difference between a polaroid and final film would be, what film, what filters, what color temp, push or not... just to be able to sleep while the lab was doing snip tests - now it's just "look at the LCD" and if you're advanced, the histogram. That's a simplification, but it's hyper competitive to get a start now. I do more video and lots of design and writing. Video's a little tougher to just jump into!

    I still think for most clients it comes down to common sense - what's the message, what does the consumer need to see/hear, and the bottom line is really "how does this affect profitability"? When clients see you're thinking this way and when they describe a job and you re-strategize the whole thing in the first meeting, they can quickly feel you're part of the team. It's like you work there, and it's great for long-term relationships. We're all consumers at some level, I try to think like one - and I have zero marketing education other than "life in America"!

  4. #14
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Processing 120 - streaks & ghosts

    Quote Originally Posted by M Carter View Post
    It was a ten-year whirlwind, from agency creative to studio; I think it helped that I was a marketing-minded guy. Back then we'd get marker layouts, and later on computer-made comps. I'd be discussing the shoot and say "if your headline said this" or "you're talking to two different markets, split this into two ads"... I'd end up getting the shoot, and then the next go-round writing and designing the project as well. Ended up sort of a one-man agency with in-house photography, and got photo and illustration work from smaller agencies. Back then it was much more about living in a large market than it may be today though. But I was doing photoshop from version 2 - when it came on a pile of floppies - and became a go-to guy for the color separators when they were stumped with a retouch (my college days were all about illustration so I understood making things look "real"). And the good separation shops knew everybody. I'd do their marketing pieces for scan trade-offs, and I was "the market" so I knew what to say & sell, and I'd get a lot of referrals that way.

    I did a lot of promo mailings and follow-ups - I think I got 3 long term clients from that in a decade. You really needed a rep to get any traction. I've never gotten a single lead from my web site either - it's all referrals.

    I really don't push shooting nearly as much these days - digital has thrown so many people into the market now. What used to take a year of testing and learning, to get you to where knowing what the difference between a polaroid and final film would be, what film, what filters, what color temp, push or not... just to be able to sleep while the lab was doing snip tests - now it's just "look at the LCD" and if you're advanced, the histogram. That's a simplification, but it's hyper competitive to get a start now. I do more video and lots of design and writing. Video's a little tougher to just jump into!

    I still think for most clients it comes down to common sense - what's the message, what does the consumer need to see/hear, and the bottom line is really "how does this affect profitability"? When clients see you're thinking this way and when they describe a job and you re-strategize the whole thing in the first meeting, they can quickly feel you're part of the team. It's like you work there, and it's great for long-term relationships. We're all consumers at some level, I try to think like one - and I have zero marketing education other than "life in America"!
    Thanks, lots to think on...


    ~Stone

    Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  5. #15
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    If i was the lens, then redoing the test without stand development should reveal that problem clearly.

    If you shoot with another camera and use the same stand method, then if you have the problem it is bromide (or chemical) drag. And yes, it can appear quite sharp, especially with larger formats.

    I am not against stand ether, but it is, as I said, an art. You don't just walk into it and do it the first time. You have to fine tune with different methods until you get things just right.

    PE

  6. #16
    M Carter's Avatar
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    I'd say the first frame I posted, from the stand film, was bromide streaking - and this test was shot with a different lens (90).

    My guess is the 2nd two, which were developed "normally" (11 and 15 minutes) were the shutter (a 180 which I hadn't used in a decade and is most decidedly messed up; just ordered another one from KEH). That lens was such a dependable favorite for so long, it took a while for me to consider that.

    I've done several rolls of 35 with the same "semi" stand technique and no trouble though; I was impressed with how much separation it gave between the shadow tones; highlights were pretty flat and overall I felt it would have taken a pretty hard filter to print. I wasn't thrilled enough with it to keep playing with the process - but it was a really useful part of trying to build some "second nature" thinking about development and highlights.

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