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  1. #1

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    More Tri-X reversal failures - analysis please.

    Subject - Testing reversal technique on 35mm Tri-X as precursor to using Super 8 Tri-X.

    I feel like I'm up against it with Tri-X 35mm. Others get results with simple technique. I'm running a multitude of tests and get nowhere.

    QUESTION - Why are my results so flat?

    Dektol Liquid 1st dev 1+5 6m, 2nd dev 1+9 3 mins. 0.03g hypo in 1st dev. (0.3g had already started to wash out the film). Foma bleach bath and clearing bath. 8m and 3m.

    NB. 4 mins of 1st dev 1+5 was more than adequate to get a solid black when testing negative film.

    1st strip 100, 200, 400 ASA.

    I started to think that maybe the bleach bath is failing? How would that present itself? Could that account for flat hilights?

    Interestingly, I accidentally left a strip of film poking out of the canister before I dev'd this last test strip and it was exposed to daylight. It seems to be clear. In which case is the reversal processing working but the exposure completely out? In that case is the film far too compromised by reversal processing? Is the film losing too much film speed? But remember that Kodak rate Tri-X as 200ASA for Super 8 Reversal film.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tri-x 12m fresh 1ml hypo pp copy.jpg 
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    Last edited by mr.datsun; 02-25-2013 at 07:07 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.datsun View Post
    Subject - Testing reversal technique on 35mm Tri-X as precursor to using Super 8 Tri-X.

    I feel like I'm up against it with Tri-X 35mm. Others get results with simple technique. I'm running a multitude of tests and get nowhere.

    QUESTION 1 Why are my results so flat?

    Dektol Liquid 1st dev 1+5 6m, 2nd dev 1+9 3 mins. 0.03g hypo in 1st dev. (0.3g had already started to wash out the film). Foma bleach bath and clearing bath. 8m and 3m.

    NB. 4 mins of 1st dev was more than adequate to get a solid black when testing negative film.

    1st strip 100, 200, 400 ASA.

    I started to think that maybe the bleach bath is failing? How would that present itself? Could that account for flat hilights?

    Interestingly, I accidentally left a strip of film poking out of the canister before I dev'd this last test strip and it was exposed to daylight. It seems to be clear. In which case is the reversal processing working but the exposure completely out? In that case is the film far too compromised by reversal processing? Is the film losing too much film speed? But remember that Kodak rate Tri-X as 200ASA for Super 8 Reversal film.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tri-x 12m fresh 1ml hypo pp copy.jpg 
Views:	121 
Size:	147.4 KB 
ID:	64794
    When are you exposing to light after the bleach bath and redeveloping?

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveh View Post
    When are you exposing to light after the bleach bath and redeveloping?
    After clearing.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    first off--tx-400 and txr-200 are two completely different films...that being said, you should be able to expose the tx-400 at say 200 or 100 or so and get the same kind of results with txr-200 with the same development.

    FIRST OFF--NO HYPO IN THE FIRST DEVELOPER--totally unnecessary--develop first deveoper for like at least 6 minutes--try 8 minutes just to be SURE.
    SECOND--use the developer concentration used for prints--dektol at print strength is what you want.

    bleach should not be taking 8 minutes..it should go FAST...do a test in light to see how fast it takes to bleach a dark negative or the crappy reversals you have to clear to base...then use twice or so that time to bleach after the first development...

    after bleach, clear and re-expose then it's time to re-develop

    since you don't have any hypo in the first developer, you can use it for a second developer.
    That's interesting. I was, perhaps, misinformed about the emulsion being the same. But you say it should work.

    I think at the moment the hypo is so minute I doubt it's doing anything but I have done a number of tests without it too which still had the flatness. I'm happy to drop it until I understand what's going on.

    I've working on tests which showed that 8 minutes at 1+2 (which is print strength) gave maximum black at negative stage. I tested strips at 1,2,5,7,10,20 and 40m. The exposed part of the strip got no blacker after 8 minutes, so I assumed I had got there. And in the second full reversal test I gave it 12m to makes sure. With the second developer I am using it at half strength (or for half the time if I re-use a hypo-less 1st dev), the equivalent of print strength.

    8 mins in bleach is too long? I am using the Foma kit (a permanganate bleach) which says 8 minutes. In general I am following the Foma kit instructions to the 'T' but with a different developer.

    Your bleach test sounds like a good suggestion.

  5. #5

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    So the bleach test took 8 minutes almost exactly to clear.

  6. #6
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    Guys, the second development should go to completion so time there should not be a huge factor. The bleach should remove all of the negative silver image. So, what we are seeing is a failure in the first developer to develop a high contrast image (and then some) that leaves no silver in the highlights. Look at the positive. There is silver in the highlights.

    Hypo in the first developer is there to force physical development and to get a good negative image. You do not have that nailed yet. That is where the problem lies.

    PE

  7. #7

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    Typically the amount of sodium thiosulfate is 8 to 12 g/l in the first developer despite what a previous poster says. It is used to produce clear highlights. Read the Ilford site on reversal processing carefully.

    If using the permanganate bleach be sure to follow the formula exactly. Specifically in the amount of acid used.

    Since each film reacts differently it is important to practice with the cine film and not regular tri-X.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  8. #8
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    For a good information about KODAK TRI-X Reversal Film 7266 see:
    http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploa...ts_bw_7266.pdf
    For good information about the recommended treatment see:
    http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploa...2415_h2415.pdf pages 23.
    I make tests on Kodak Double X 5222 reversible procces.
    The results show somewhat similar to the one here.
    I think it's important film (fogg to be small).
    Then chances to get a reverse image of b&w are much larger.
    I had no time to do tests on film Agfa Pan Aviphot 200 and 400 with fogg
    below 0.10.

    George

  9. #9
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    I found a picture with Kodak Double X reversal process b&w.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/2112144...in/photostream

    George

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by georgegrosu View Post
    I found a picture with Kodak Double X reversal process b&w.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/2112144...in/photostream

    George
    George. Thank-you. Is Double X the same as Tri-X? In general it works even though that one is, too, quite flat. Although it isn't as flat as mine and it could be just a very dull day.

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