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  1. #11

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    Rafal - a couple of things to keep in mind:

    1. As you decrease (or eliminate) the concentration of bromide and replace it with BZT for cooler tones, it is likely you will see less stability in image tone through successive prints. As bromide gradually builds up the tone will tend to become warmer as you go. So consistency from print to print could be a potential issue. The relatively high initial concentration of bromide in Ansco 130 may explain why it is said to be so consistent throughout its working life.

    2. Watch out for a split-cooling effect with some warm tone papers. If the base is tinted warm (I believe MGWT is like this, although Ian G. would likely know for sure), you may still end up with relatively warm highlights and upper midtones where there is less silver, relative to the shadows where the developed image has been cooled by the cool/blue-toned developer.

    Just some thoughts.

  2. #12
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Michael, MGWT FB is on a fairly white base, however it was originally on a creamy base which was why I switched to Forte Polywarmtone when Agfa ceased paper manufacture. The paper (base) manufacturer stopped making the creamy base and I' be happier using the Ilford warm tone paper now.

    Ian

  3. #13

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    Thanks for correcting that. I can't remember where I read MGWT FB was on a cream base but perhaps it was actually in reference to an older version of the paper.

    Michael

  4. #14
    Rafal Lukawiecki's Avatar
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    Update on Progress: Mixed Results

    I have printed perhaps 50 sheets of MGWT FB glossy, from different negatives, using Ansco 103 (not 130) with the BTA/KBr modification as described earlier, in my post #8. The results are a mixed bag. There is a definite, noticeable cooling off in the deep shadows, and in some of the midtones, but none that I could see in the highlights. As some of you suggested, notably Drew, midtones printed by means of higher contrast grades tend to cool off, the softer ones, ie. those achieved by primarily the green exposure, are resistant to cooling off using this mixture. I would generalise that this developer offers a cooler tone than a modified Ansco 130, but if you print high-key, or if you lack larger shadow areas, you will not notice much if anything at all. Further, the difference between modified Ansco 130 and the original, on this paper, is also negligible. Still, overall, I do like the tone of this modified 103, especially following a brief Se toning, about 1 min to 1 min 20 sec in fresh KRST 1+9.

    Interestingly, Ansco 103 (modified, as above) works quite consistently, and it lasted, as working solution, for a week without any noticeable, subjective loss of power—I did not plot any curves, though. The fear, voiced earlier, that it may change tone due to gradual accumulation of bromide does not seem to have been the case for me, but I have not used it for more than 20 8x10 sheets/l working solution (60 8x10 sheets/l stock).

    However, I will continue my search, and today I will mix ID-62. I also hope to test DS-14 with the BTA modification, soon. I will report on either.
    Rafal Lukawiecki
    See rafal.net | Read rafal.net/articles

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Robert James View Post
    The coldest tone I have ever seen was with an Agfa developer called Neutol Plus (not Neutol WA or NE) with Forte paper. I don't know what was in that though but the developer may be worth a look...
    "Cool" doesn't begin to describe that ascorbic-based Neutol Plus / Forte combination. It was as blue as a cyanotype. I never tried Neutol Plus with Multigrade Warmtone fiber, but would very much like to.

    Connect Chemicals, current owner of the business that still manufactures Neutol WA and Neutol NE (under the names "Print WA" and "Print NE"), apparently also offers Neutol Plus as "Print Plus." See here:


    I've written to Freestyle asking whether it would consider importing Print Plus but have not received a response yet. I'll update this thread if/when Freestyle answers.

  6. #16

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    Sal - you might also want to try Moersch SE3 and SE6. SE3 is a two part ascorbic acid-based, supposedly cold-tone developer. I actually have a package of it which I had intended to test with Ilford MGWT FB but still haven't had the time to try it out. SE6 is an all-out blue-black developer. I don't know what is in it and haven't tried it but Brian Steinberger got some interesting results with it and MGWT FB.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Sal - you might also want to try Moersch SE3 and SE6. SE3 is a two part ascorbic acid-based, supposedly cold-tone developer. I actually have a package of it which I had intended to test with Ilford MGWT FB but still haven't had the time to try it out...
    I've had good results with SE6 and MGWT FB -- see this post:


    but held off purchasing any of the even-more-expensive SE3. Please do post your results after you try it out.

  8. #18
    Rafal Lukawiecki's Avatar
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    First of all, I am pleased, so far, but not too surprised, with my today's attempt with ID-62, mixed as per Ian Grant's post, which I linked to at the top, but for the avoidance of doubt, this is what I did:

    In 750 ml of 50C water:
    Phenidone 0.5g
    Sodium sulfite anh 50g
    Hydroquinone 12g
    Sodium carbonate anh 60g
    Potassium bromide 2g (as 20ml 10% solution)
    Benzotriazole 0.2g (as 20ml 1% solution)
    water to make 1l. Dilution 1+2 (not 1+3 as suggested), 20C, and exposure aimed for 2 min 30 s developing time.

    I printed a negative with plenty of shadow and midtone, again on MGWT FB glossy. Shadows seemed quite neutral, much cooler than 130 (BTA modified and not), similar to 103 (BTA modified). Midtones were more neutral than 103, and much cooler than 130. Highlights are still warmish. However, after a short, 1 min 15 s in KRST 1+9 (mid-life, not fresh), the overall tone, gently plummy, is more even in midtones than with 103, and less "split" than with 130. Highlights, after Se, were also more coherent with the rest of the tone of the print, I find the look much less jarring than MGWT in 130 & Se. If you tone for only 30-45 s, the look has a coolness that I would accept, if I were not looking for a more traditional Se look. But without Se there is a hint of the traditional hydroquinone greenish cast, not so present after 130.

    Tomorrow I am planning to print a high-key image, this will be the real test of ID-62 in terms of my goals.

    Sal, I am excited to read that the developer you mentioned is ascorbic based. I will be mixing DS-14 in the next few weeks, with and without BTA, I wonder if that brings more cool or neutral tone to the midtones and the highlights.

    Many thanks, Ian, for suggesting ID-62. It is very nice, even with the normal amount of KBr, it seems. I like it.
    Rafal Lukawiecki
    See rafal.net | Read rafal.net/articles

  9. #19
    Patrick Robert James's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    "Cool" doesn't begin to describe that ascorbic-based Neutol Plus / Forte combination. It was as blue as a cyanotype. I never tried Neutol Plus with Multigrade Warmtone fiber, but would very much like to.

    Connect Chemicals, current owner of the business that still manufactures Neutol WA and Neutol NE (under the names "Print WA" and "Print NE"), apparently also offers Neutol Plus as "Print Plus." See here:

    I've written to Freestyle asking whether it would consider importing Print Plus but have not received a response yet. I'll update this thread if/when Freestyle answers.
    Yes Sal, that is actually very true! It was shocking how blue it was. I use Ascorbic Acid print developers (E-72 based) all the time, but I have never run into anything like that again. I wonder what the difference was.

    If it wasn't so expensive I would get some of that delivered here. It is too bad Freestyle doesn't import it. maybe I will email them about it.

    If anyone knows what causes it to be so cold, please speak up! I would appreciate it.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    "Cool" doesn't begin to describe that ascorbic-based Neutol Plus / Forte combination.
    I never tried that exact combo but I agree that Forte paper was as BLUE black as I have ever seen. I used my own home brew cold tone developer with and loved the results. I only have a few sheets of paper left. If only it could be brought back into production.

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