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  1. #11
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Vinegar smelling film

    AC12 I thought at first I would like to keep the dangerous Nitrate based film too as I enjoyed the images I got, but ultimately PE's advice to throw it away probably saved a lot of destruction. I would say scan it and burn it like I did.

    I won't be using the Pan-X but still would like to keep and use the GAF which is just "slippery" since it doesn't smell I'm hoping the final decision is that's at least safe. I just want to know, should I separate it from the other films?

    What a conundrum!


    ~Stone

    Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  2. #12
    eddie's Avatar
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    Stone- If it's oily, you probably don't want to stick it in your camera. You never know what damage it can do.

  3. #13
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Vinegar smelling film

    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    Stone- If it's oily, you probably don't want to stick it in your camera. You never know what damage it can do.
    Well I've already run it through, it seems to be on the base side not the emulsion side of that helps


    ~Stone

    Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  4. #14
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    I shot some 8x10 Dupont X-F Pan from the 1940s recently that smelled strongly of vinegar when I opened the box. Sure enough the base had shrunk so much that it wouldn't fit into an 8x10 holder properly, so I taped it in. I had ZERO hope of there being an image, but before I tossed it I wanted to be sure. To my surprise I achieved the result below. How archival it is from here on out only time will tell.







    Jonathan

  5. #15
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Don't forget that sheet film does not have to travel over 35mm or 70mm camera parts.

    Also, don't forget that there is the vinegar smell in processed film and raw film stock. The latter is far worse I think.

    PE

  6. #16
    Worker 11811's Avatar
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    Ron, you're right. My experience is with processed film. As I said, I am only guessing when it comes to unprocessed film but any film that has gone vinegar can't be good.

    Running film through a projector versus through a camera also presents a different set of circumstances but, in either case, caution is warranted.

    I once had to run a 35mm print of "Phantom of the Opera" (1925) which was on vinegared acetate stock. When I opened the cans, I got hit in the face with the smell of Renovex film cleaner combined with vinegar. Practically knocked me over backward! The film was so dry and brittle it literally crumbled in my fingers but I had a good, old straight-gate Simplex projector that handles film well. It took a lot of work but I got it to run.

    I agree with you, Ron, the acetic acid isn't good for cameras or projectors, especially if the film is damp with vinegar. In my case, it was "you gotta' do what you gotta' do." I cleaned the heck out of the entire projector before and after every run. My problem was that I had a paying audience waiting to watch a vintage movie of which there are few existing copies. It was either run the movie or disappoint an audience. The show must go on.

    Certainly, one should consider whether to run vinegared film through a camera carefully. If in doubt, don't.

    My experience is different but the main things to watch out for are dry, brittle film. It also shrinks and weeps liquid. (Acetic acid plus other platicizers, etc.) The image might remain on black and white film but, color film will certainly fade. It will quickly turn pink and finally turn red. At this point, there is not going back. The film will soon be shot if it isn't already.

    The only thing you can do is try to slow down the degradation process. Keep the film cool and dry. Remove any residue from the film, if possible, and vent away any vapors. The acid vapors can cause other film to start decaying. Byproducts of the degradation reaction causes film to decay even faster. Segregate degraded film from other film. Molecular sieves can be used to absorb acid vapors. Packets of activated charcoal MIGHT work if you have no other options.

    Once film starts to vinegar, it is basically done for. You can copy the image onto fresh film if it hasn't gone too far bad. Otherwise, it's game over.

    I wouldn't use vinegared film in a good camera unless I absolutely had to.

    P.S. Stone: The acetate base is what degrades. The emulsion doesn't degrade so much. If the film shrinks too much the emulsion will slough off. It's called "channeling." That's what we see in jcoldslabs example, posted above.
    Last edited by Worker 11811; 03-10-2013 at 11:26 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Randy S.

    In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

    -----

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/randystankey/

  7. #17
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Vinegar smelling film

    Well the film itself doesn't appear "shrunk" at all and isn't brittle, just vinegar smell, so, who knows, I'm just hesitant to run it through my 70mm back. I don't want transfer to other films run after it or damage to the back itself.

    And again would wonder what the slippery stuff is on my GAF film (that's the "good" stuff I've been using that doesn't smell, I love the characteristics and images I get, I'm actually literally developing a 15 foot roll of the GAF IM 10 minutes...


    ~Stone

    Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  8. #18
    Worker 11811's Avatar
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    Just clean the camera (or projector) after using any suspect film.

    Any oily liquid on the film is probably the plasticizers leaching out. Another sign of degradation.

    While I'm not afraid to run vinegared film, I'm not eager to do it, either. I'd try to avoid it if I could but the final decision would be based on just how far gone the film is. If it was just a little whiff of vinegar I wouldn't be so worried. If it smelled strong or had any liquid on the surface, I'd be very hesitant unless it was a "show must go on" situation like above.
    Randy S.

    In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

    -----

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/randystankey/

  9. #19
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worker 11811 View Post
    Just clean the camera (or projector) after using any suspect film.

    Any oily liquid on the film is probably the plasticizers leaching out. Another sign of degradation.

    While I'm not afraid to run vinegared film, I'm not eager to do it, either. I'd try to avoid it if I could but the final decision would be based on just how far gone the film is. If it was just a little whiff of vinegar I wouldn't be so worried. If it smelled strong or had any liquid on the surface, I'd be very hesitant unless it was a "show must go on" situation like above.
    Well once the plasticizers leaching issue is run through the developer I don't seem to see any or feel it on the film, it seems only evident on the pre-processed film. I think it's ok.

    I don't know what to do with the pan-x ... I love the stuff, it's my last roll I'll probably ever buy as I'm not buying any more used/old film, I've had my experiences with it, but I'm "done" and just trying to use it up, it's just money I've spent that's now lost ... a disappointment... I didn't smell it when I got it, a foolish move, now I have to go defrost and smell all my cans... see what's not worth saving... blah... I always smell them before I go to shoot the roll, but forgot to check a few when I first got them, so now, I have no recourse from the seller either, it's only a few dollars, but still, I suppose it's money in education at least

  10. #20

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    Well it's a crook day when you don't learn something new. I've not, until now, heard of vinegared film and I've always understood acetate film to be very durable. If this happens to processed negatives as well as unprocessed stock, does it not cast some doubt upon the generally accepted archival properties of film? OzJohn

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