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Thread: Bad Pan F ??

  1. #51
    erikg's Avatar
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    Thank you Simon, for this and for your continued involvement here on Apug. Could you point me to the official word on the latent image properties of Pan-F+? Pan-F has long been one of my favorite films and if I pass information about it along I want to know I'm being correct.

    Thanks,
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon R Galley View Post
    Dear NB23,

    I have discussed the latent image properties of PAN F and PAN F + before.

    PAN F+ is NOT unstable and your theory regarding date stamping an 'old' roll is laughable.

    We coat each of our films on a regular basis, some monthly, some bi-monthly and some tri-monthly
    and one of our film products ( not PAN F+ ) twice per annum, remember 35mm, 120 film and sheet film are all separate coating events. This ensures that we do not hold too many rolls of extremely expensive coated parent roll material in stock, that would be very bad business, it also ensures that we have extremely fresh film leaving the factory. Every coated parent roll is date registered, and when it is finished into cassettes the coated batch has to have the exact same expirey date on it, its all computer controlled, sequentially finished and called TQM ( total quality management ). Whilst waiting to be finished it is stored under controlled conditions. If a scan of the individual bar code on the parent roll that is to be finished is taken and its not sequential with the last roll ( of the same type ) the process control system cannot be initiated.

    Please do not get me wrong, I'm not miffed, you are entitled to whatever opinion you hold and I do not doubt for second they are geniunely held, my issue is that I know the massive amount of hard work and systems that have been put in place to ensure the ultimate in quality control and the money we have spent ( and continue to spend ) to ensure 100% customer satisfaction. I know every single week how much 'waste' we have, that is coated product both film and paper that never finds its way into a box due to our no compromise QC systems, its one of our key KPI monitors.

    And the secret is, the better your QC from start to finish the lower the waste will actually be.

    Kindest Regards

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology LImited :

  2. #52
    MattKing's Avatar
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    I have never found the relative density of the edge printing on film to be a reliable indicator of anything.

    Latent images degrade over time. The rate of degradation is complex and hard to predict.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    I have never found the relative density of the edge printing on film to be a reliable indicator of anything.

    Latent images degrade over time. The rate of degradation is complex and hard to predict.

    They are good indicators to tell development errors. Also, since they are exposed at the manufacturing stage they shall, logically, tell us a thing or two on the latent image stability.

  4. #54
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    ...since they are exposed at the manufacturing stage they shall, logically, tell us a thing or two on the latent image stability.
    There is a possibility that the film rebate exposure system is exposing all film with the same intensity.

    If that's the case, the Pan-F+ is an ISO 50 film, which is less sensitive than any of their other films.

    That is one possibility to why the edge markings may show up less prominently with this film, but that is nothing more than a guess on my behalf.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  5. #55

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    Simon,
    I am a very regular HP5 user and lover and I print on Ilford papers almost exclusively. I've really only had unpredictable results with Pan-F from time to time.
    My scratched FP-4 film issues date from 1994.

  6. #56
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    Bad Pan F ??

    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    Simon,
    I am a very regular HP5 user and lover and I print on Ilford papers almost exclusively. I've really only had unpredictable results with Pan-F from time to time.
    My scratched FP-4 film issues date from 1994.
    If your edge markings are strong on the film, then perhaps you over developed? That would explain that perhaps? Why don't you actually send in the film to Ilford to have it examined to have them see if they can determine the issue instead of reiterating your perceived QC issues...


    ~Stone

    Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    Also, my HP5 films behave differently from time to time.
    Could you say more about this please.
    Steve.

  8. #58

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    So Ned, just so you know what we're talking about here are frames from three rolls of PanF+, all shot at iso 40 and all run in DD-X 1:4. This has been my normal way of shooting and developing Pan F+ for about four years now. (Pardon my iPhone through the loupe shots here)

    These first two are from the same batch of PanF+, which was dated 2015. One developed in March last year and the other developed last week.

    Expiration date 2015, exposed & Developed March 2012:


    Expiration date 2015, exposed and developed April 2013:


    Expiration date 2016, exposed and developed April 2013:


    I would completely expect that a roll from this 2016 batch will have equally thin edgeprinting should any of it be left here in May of 2014. When exposed and developed promptly the image area develops normally. The edge printing changes in intensity depending on the age of the film. I first came across this with a roll of PanF+ I let sit for a long while - several months waiting till I had more rolls to fill up a developing tank. The "old" film was markedly thinner overall despite being processed in the same tank, and noticeably thinner than films exposed during the same period but developed promptly.
    Last edited by sepiareverb; 04-10-2013 at 05:09 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #59
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sepiareverb View Post
    So Ned, just so you know what we're talking about here are frames from three rolls of PanF+, all shot at iso 40 and all run in DD-X 1:4. This has been my normal way of shooting and developing Pan F+ for about four years now. (Pardon my iPhone through the loupe shots here)

    -----

    I would completely expect that a roll from this 2016 batch will have equally thin edgeprinting should any of it be left here in May of 2014. When exposed and developed promptly the image area develops normally. The edge printing changes in intensity depending on the age of the film. I first came across this with a roll of PanF+ I let sit for a long while - several months waiting till I had more rolls to fill up a developing tank. The "old" film was markedly thinner overall despite being processed in the same tank, and noticeably thinner than films exposed during the same period but developed promptly.
    Well, your excellent test throws my theory right out the window. I'm glad I was wrong.

    It would be interesting to see a test where a roll of film is kept in the same camera, and the exact same picture (studio, obviously) taken once per week on the same roll, meaning 36 weeks to finish it, and then process to see the results.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Well, your excellent test throws my theory right out the window. I'm glad I was wrong.

    It would be interesting to see a test where a roll of film is kept in the same camera, and the exact same picture (studio, obviously) taken once per week on the same roll, meaning 36 weeks to finish it, and then process to see the results.
    That would be interesting. I'd maybe suggest every ten days so as to lengthen the timeframe a little.


    I will note that the edgeprinting on PanF+ is never as intense as with HP5 or FP4 (tho I don't shoot much FP4 these days)

    PanF+ is one of my main films, as the slowest pan emulsion in ready supply I expect it will remain so for a very long time.



 

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