Removing brown tone from reversal processed b&w?
Having reached an (almost) acceptable plateau in my reversal processing experiments with Dokumol/Dokumol (1st/2nd dev), I switched tests to Rodinal/Rodinal to get a fresh perspective on things.
Rodinal has suddenly proved to be very viable alternative for me as a Reversal 1st dev. But I am now getting warmer-browner tone images than I was getting with the cooler neutral Dokumol which I really do not want.
I first used Rodinal/Rodinal and found that a Rodinal/Dokumol combination (maybe) appears to ameliorate the brown effect, but it remains. It may be a connected of 1st dev temperature but I'm not clear on this one yet.
Question - will there be a way to remove/neutralise this brown tone if I have to accept it as a byproduct of the process?
R09 + Na2S2O3, KMnO4/H2SO4 bleach, Foma Clearing bath, Light, R09 or Dokumol, Fix with Tetenal hardener.
I would have thought the final fixing bath would have removed this, are you washing for sufficient time?
Well, I'm running many tests so I may not be as rigorous with the wash as when first I started - but I'm doing the Ilford 5, 10, 20 inversion rinse method. I use a qty of water roughly commensurate with the qty of dev I use. And that is 75ml. My inversions do get faster towards the end of each one hour development session.
Originally Posted by BMbikerider
I have a fix bath which I use for 5 minutes - to maximise on the hardener as much as for the fix. The five minutes is also the recommended fix time for that fixer. I could run the next test with a more considered and leisurely inversion technique. And start with a fresh fix mix.
Where does the brown come from? Is it a sepia side-effect from some uptake of the sulphur in the bleach? And if so should the fix remove that?
The brown isn't a strong sepia effect just a warm brown tone that I don't much like.
Last edited by mr.datsun; 05-16-2013 at 05:34 AM. Click to view previous post history.
It should be easy to determine which step of your processes brings about this brown tone. Run some test clips through only part of the process and inspect. Brown tone can come from various sources including Sulfide, very small grains, bleach precipitates, ...
Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.
The same happens to me. I don't use Rodinal for reversal processing for this very same reason. That brown tone is awful...
No prblems with the other developers: Dokumol, Neutol,... I'm going to try D11 next time.
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That may be just an extra haze of silver on the transparency and could be cleared with the very dilute ferricyanide bleach/fix bath. try it--give a dilute bleaching to half of a transparency and see if it cuts it. It may be caused by physical development going on in the process--dissolved silver in the solution is deposited on emulsion silver.
The second developer determines the tone. In fact, you can use straight sodium sulfide as the second developer to get a nice sepia tone. I would assume that the any developer with sulfur in it would deliver a similar brown tone.
"Panic not my child, the Great Yellow Father has your hand"--Larry Dressler
When you say a haze of silver, do you mean reduced silver? Would the silver be brown? You mean Potassium Ferricyanide?
You'd think so, but substituting Dokumol for 2nd dev does not seem to help. Does R09 have sulphur in it and Dokumol not? Dokumol/Dokumol is more neutral than R09/R09 or R09/Dokumol.
At this moment, Rodinal seems to have something special going on as a reversal developer that I haven't got from elsewhere and that I'd maybe like to use if I get can rid of the warm tone.
It's not there that I've ever seen in my 35mm R09 negs or when I stop my current reversal process and fix at neg. stage. I'm not sure where else I can stop the process and inspect the results. After bleach and clearing there's nothing useful to see, is there? Unless the fix causes the problem.
Thanks for the responses. I can't help thinking that it's some kind of sepia effect going on at the bleach stage. If there's no known way of getting rid of sepia tone, I'll go back to testing. I think I'll make fresh fix and check my two processes again, removing any temperature variation factors, first.
Last edited by mr.datsun; 05-18-2013 at 02:42 PM. Click to view previous post history.
Stick with it my brother!
I for one am encouraged that you are plugging away til you get it.
I gave up awhile ago due to low contrast but will get back to testing this summer.
Tip o the Jar to ya mate!
yes--metallic silver. very fine deposits of silver are sometimes caused by physical deveopment going on when there is silver solvant in the developer. Also, maybe incomplete bleaching may leave very very fine silver which gets re-developed in the second development or serves as sites for physical development during second deveopment.
Originally Posted by mr.datsun
Very fine silver can be brown or provide other colors too. It's sometimes called "dichroic fog" when it's unwanted. With reversal, it's more of an overall haze of developed or deposited silver.
Yes, potassium ferricyanide bleach plus hypo...plus a final hypo--standard bleaching process to clear any deposits away and brighten the highlights. If it's silver, this will get rid of it. If this doesn't work, then it's some kind of stain--perhaps from the bleaching step, perhaps from the second deveopment. Perhaps from an interaction between bleaching and second development.