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  1. #81
    Ming Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    Hey Ming Rider, the problem I see with judging the contrast difference you see is that it is a fully adjustable characteristic, it can be matched across all 4 development regimes by adjusting say the time a bit.

    The difference is effectively irrelevant, the adjustment to fix that contrast difference is simply part the normal refinements we all do. It is not an inherent difference.
    But a controlled experiment is essential to find the required adjustment?
    "All I ask for is an M5 with a fast lens, a roll of HP5 and a street to shoot her by."

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  2. #82
    Ming Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    Good intel here. I'd like to know what you mixed these chems with (distil water, kosher salt/sea salt/..quantity....etc).....

    Where's the "notes"?

    Great work thus far! I've some HP5+ that I'd love to run thru the 1:100+salt-regime
    Cheers,

    The salt was Cornish Sea Salt (nothing but salt) and the ratio was 30g/litre of Distilled Water.

    I will upload a picture of the notes and a full run down will be in the video, which is nearly ready. Will post link when done.
    "All I ask for is an M5 with a fast lens, a roll of HP5 and a street to shoot her by."

    StreetPhotographyBlog

  3. #83
    Ming Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1956 View Post
    I've watched this thread continually pop up, read a post or 2, and moved on. It seems a continuing saga of experiments to make Rodinal palatable. Now I see added salt is one of the tricks to make this grain factory workable. It's always about the grain with this potion, isn't it? So now it seems that high dilution and salt is another way of trying to make Microdol out of this developer. To which I can only question. why not just use Microdol (or Perceptol)? Maybe I'm getting old and have fewer days, so to me, life's too short to make a bad developer work.
    My goal is/was to get the best out of what I have/prefer, rather than make it something it isn't or like something else.
    "All I ask for is an M5 with a fast lens, a roll of HP5 and a street to shoot her by."

    StreetPhotographyBlog

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by polyglot View Post
    Originally Posted by Tom1956 I've watched this thread continually pop up, read a post or 2, and moved on. It seems a continuing saga of experiments to make Rodinal palatable. Now I see added salt is one of the tricks to make this grain factory workable. It's always about the grain with this potion, isn't it? So now it seems that high dilution and salt is another way of trying to make Microdol out of this developer. To which I can only questio
    Or use a fine-grain film. Of course it's grainy with HP5.
    Acros, TMX, Pan-F and Efke-25 are all awesome in Rodinal.
    Hi guys,
    You're all absolutely right, there are nice alternatives.
    But maybe we just like to fool around (I mean to test) with Rodinal and Ilford film, just to see what it can (not) do and to what extend we can influence the process and results.

    To quote Bill Watterson: "You mix a bunch of ingredients, and once in a great while, chemistry happens."
    and Davey Coleman: "Creative thinking may mean simply the realization that there’s no particular virtue in doing things the way they have always been done."
    "Have fun and catch that light beam!"
    Bert from Holland
    my blog: http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl
    my Linkedin pinhole group: http://tinyurl.com/pinholegroup


    * I'm an analogue enthusiast, trying not to fall into the digital abyss.
    * My favorite cameras: Hasselblad SWC, Leica SL, Leica M7, Russian FKD 18x24, Bronica SQ-B and RF645, Rolleiflex T2, Nikon F4s, Agfa Clack and my pinhole cameras

  5. #85
    Ming Rider's Avatar
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    Cheers Bert,

    I couldn't have put it better myself.
    "All I ask for is an M5 with a fast lens, a roll of HP5 and a street to shoot her by."

    StreetPhotographyBlog

  6. #86

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    Controlled experiments are required with development to the same contrast index. This is important not only to evaluate image structure, but curve shape and film speed. The addition of sodium chloride to a developer may reduce film speed.

    A controlled test with reduced agitation is also required. A claim was made in this thread that stand development with Rodinal yields finer grain than continuous agitation. I haven't seen evidence supporting this assertion and I'm not sure what mechanism would cause this to be the case.

  7. #87
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    When you add the salt you change the chemical make-up of the developer. When you change the chemical make-up of the developer, you essentially end up with two different developers.
    Because of that, you must insure that the negatives themselves have the same final contrast from both developers, in order to make a meaningful comparison.

    It would be even better if you could contact print the negatives next to a 21-step step wedge to compare tonality and range.

    I'd also like to mention that using standing development can be a blessing and a curse. If you ask Steve Sherman, possibly the world's expert practitioner on the topic, he will tell you that standing development is a great method. If you see one of his prints some time, I am sure you can be convinced that standing development is an alternative. But I do not see him using Tri-X at EI 25,000 either.
    What DOES happen when you use this technique is that you change the tonality of the film quite severely. It is extreme compensating development where shadow values are brought up and highlights toned down, and when you print in the darkroom, I sometimes find that the tonality can be really strange from these negatives, and I think this is where some of the conflict surrounding whether it works or not comes from, possibly even contempt from darkroom printers who think scanning film is like cheating. Just a wild guess.

    What the bottom line is in this thread, however, is that HP5+ will never be a fine grain film. There is no developer that will make it a fine grain film.
    Embrace that grain, because it's beautiful! Last year I used about 25 rolls of 36 exposure 35mm HP5+, in replenished Xtol mostly, and the prints look really great at 16x20 inches. The grain? Just find some interesting subject matter, and make meaningful photographs, and you won't even see it. Photographers are their own worst critics, and nobody else cares about grain.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  8. #88
    Ming Rider's Avatar
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    I agree with both of the above. What I found with this test (and something I had to see with my own efforts) was that grain is grain. What I inadvertantly realised was that the contrast 'from the negative' could be brought out quite dramatically.

    I love grain but I also love contrast. But which is better? There's only one way to find out . . . Fight !!! (Harry Hill )
    "All I ask for is an M5 with a fast lens, a roll of HP5 and a street to shoot her by."

    StreetPhotographyBlog

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Rider View Post
    I agree with both of the above. What I found with this test (and something I had to see with my own efforts) was that grain is grain. What I inadvertantly realised was that the contrast 'from the negative' could be brought out quite dramatically.

    I love grain but I also love contrast. But which is better? There's only one way to find out . . . Fight !!! (Harry Hill )
    Good call. Let's fight and make the world better...

    Some time, try shooting HP5+ at 100, process in Rodinal at 1+25 for about 13 minutes with normal agitation. Print at Grade 5. Have fun.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #90
    Ming Rider's Avatar
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    Here's the video I made to go with the test.

    http://youtu.be/DO5iJXtv9Qc
    "All I ask for is an M5 with a fast lens, a roll of HP5 and a street to shoot her by."

    StreetPhotographyBlog



 

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