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  1. #1
    omaha's Avatar
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    Am I rinsing wrong?

    In my initial thread on starting to develop film (I'm using FP4 with Ilfosol 3) someone commented that they rinsed for as much as 20 minutes.

    Ok, I have to confess, by the time I get to the rinse step, I am very eager to get a look at the negatives, so I've never rinsed anywhere near that long.

    What I've been doing is pop the top off and then run water from the tap into the tank. I'll let it fill and then dump it out maybe 15 or 20 times. I'll set the tank in the bottom of the sink and let it run continuously for a couple of minutes as I tidy up some of the other stuff I had been using.

    But about then I'll get impatient, so I dump out the water, pour in my PhotoFlo mixture, pop the top back on so I can invert it a couple of times to make sure it coats everywhere, then I dump that out (back into my pre-mixed jug, actually), pull out the negatives, give them a swipe with my sponge squeegee thing, and hang them up.

    So far, I can't see that anything is missing from rinsing for what is probably a total of five minutes instead of 20, but then again, I haven't printed or scanned any of these yet either.

    Am I screwing this up? Should I suck it up and rinse longer? What does a 20 minute rinse do that my process does not?

  2. #2
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omaha View Post
    In my initial thread on starting to develop film (I'm using FP4 with Ilfosol 3) someone commented that they rinsed for as much as 20 minutes.

    Ok, I have to confess, by the time I get to the rinse step, I am very eager to get a look at the negatives, so I've never rinsed anywhere near that long.

    What I've been doing is pop the top off and then run water from the tap into the tank. I'll let it fill and then dump it out maybe 15 or 20 times. I'll set the tank in the bottom of the sink and let it run continuously for a couple of minutes as I tidy up some of the other stuff I had been using.

    But about then I'll get impatient, so I dump out the water, pour in my PhotoFlo mixture, pop the top back on so I can invert it a couple of times to make sure it coats everywhere, then I dump that out (back into my pre-mixed jug, actually), pull out the negatives, give them a swipe with my sponge squeegee thing, and hang them up.

    So far, I can't see that anything is missing from rinsing for what is probably a total of five minutes instead of 20, but then again, I haven't printed or scanned any of these yet either.

    Am I screwing this up? Should I suck it up and rinse longer? What does a 20 minute rinse do that my process does not?
    20 sounds long, 10 sounds better, get some hypo-clearing agent and cut it to 5.


    ~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  3. #3
    cliveh's Avatar
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    Efficient washing is quite important and I think most people wash film in running cold tap water for about 20 minutes. However, this can be speeded up by using water at a slightly higher temperature and ensuring complete changes of water in the tank.

    “The contemplation of things as they are, without error or confusion, without substitution or imposture, is in itself a nobler thing than a whole harvest of invention”

    Francis Bacon

  4. #4
    L Gebhardt's Avatar
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    It depends on your fixer, water temp and the film emulsion. Thinner emulsions rinse faster. Warmer water rinses faster. Neutral or alkaline fixers rinse out faster than the acid fixers.


    In short there are a lot of variables. you may be rinsing enough, or you may not be. You should ideally test the final rinse water for a fixer level.

  5. #5
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Maybe!

    I expect you mean washing, rather than rinsing.

    Washing removes all but a trace amount of the byproducts of developing from the emulsion. It takes some time to work completely, because it depends on diffusion! I cannot tell from your description whether your procedure gives enough time for diffusion to occur.

    If you don't do it properly, your negatives won't last for a long time - they will start to deteriorate. It may take months or years, but they will eventually become useless.

    This thread includes some tests: http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/8...hing-test.html

    And I would strongly suggest that you don't mix up and then re-use Photo-flo. Mixed up Photo-flo with bits of gelatin from film is a perfect environment for growing slimy things.

    I also recommend taking film off of the reels before it goes into the Photo-flo, and avoiding squeegees if possible.

    Squeegees have their fans, but I don't know anyone who likes scratches.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  6. #6

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    Good Afternoon, Omaha,

    While hypo-clear is not essential, using it is a good idea. A five-minute wash in running water after hypo-clear is the usual recommendation, so 8-10 minutes should be very adequate with virtually any film.

    I would hesitate to use wash water warmer than that of the processing chemicals; there is a possibility, albeit highly unlikely with most films, that the emulsion may swell and end up looking grainier than it should. When done deliberately and with significantly higher temperatures, reticulation can be induced, although it isn't always easy with many modern films. Still, the best approach is to use a gradual reduction of temperature during the processing--pre-soak and developer at 68 degrees, quick rinse and fixer a degree or two lower, another rinse and hypo-clear slightly lower again, and final wash at, say, 65 degrees.

    I would definitely avoid reusing Photo-flo. Any inadequately-washed film could contaminate the Photo-flo with fixer and affect subsequent processing. Photo-flo isn't very expensive to begin with, and the amount needed is so minute (two or three drops for the 8 ounces required to cover 35mm reels) that one-shot is the most practical approach. Over the course of about four decades, I have processed hundreds of rolls of film and thousands of sheets of 4 x 5 film; I've always used Photo-flo and am currently only about halfway through my third 4-ounce bottle.

    Konical
    Last edited by Konical; 07-23-2013 at 02:05 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: typo

  7. #7

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    Everything MattKing said +.
    Also, the temp of the wash should be close to the temp of the processing, and for that matter, all of the processing solutions should be the same temp (+/- 1 degree) to minimize silver particle clumping, unless grainy look is what you want.
    Washing is also a combination of change of water and immersion time. You can find a recommended procedure on Ilford's web site that involves a series of fill and soak cycles. Today, I use a Gravity Works fill and dump washer that I set as slow as I can for about 10 minutes (I also put objects into the washer if needed, to displace as much water as I can, to minimize fill quantity), but when I was in the Army, mid to late 60's, I had no source of water for washing below 85F. I filled a bucket, added ice to cool down to 70F, filled, 15 sec stand, then dump - 25 times, and those negs are good today.

  8. #8
    omaha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konical View Post
    final wash at, say, 65 degrees.
    Interesting.

    One of the things I am dealing with is that right now (heat of the summer) my "cold" water comes out of the tap at about 72 degrees.

    Point taken on the no reusing photoflo. I'll start dumping that out.

    Thanks, all!

  9. #9
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omaha View Post
    Interesting.

    One of the things I am dealing with is that right now (heat of the summer) my "cold" water comes out of the tap at about 72 degrees.

    Point taken on the no reusing photoflo. I'll start dumping that out.

    Thanks, all!
    I don't understand this, water from the tap flows underground lower than 6 feet, so the temp should be 55-60 degrees standard at all times (once you run through what's in the house pipes, but if you want hot water you have to wait till it gets to the fresh hot water also) so saying its. 72 or more doesn't make sense to me...


    ~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  10. #10

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    Good Afternoon,

    My comments on temperature are based on an ideal situation. What I mainly try to avoid is any increase in temperature as processing proceeds. During the summer in my present location I have the same problem as Omaha and Stone have indicated and sometimes can't get a cold water temperature lower than 68-70 degrees. Fortunately, modern film doesn't seem to suffer from this small increase, but winter processing lets me follow my preferred approach.

    Konical

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