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  1. #1

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    Problem with Ilford HP5 in sheet and 120 (unexplained sratches)

    I posted this on the large format photography forum and they suggested that I post it here as somebody from Ilford visits here.


    I have a problem that I thought was me at first but now I am thinking it is something wrong with Ilford film. I shoot HP5 across all formats, and recently in the last few rolls of 120 I have gotten wavy lines that run across the non emulsion side of the film. At first I thought it might have been the camera that I was using, but then I developed another roll that I had put through a different camera. The lines looked the same. Then I thought it might have been from me squeegeeing the film so I stopped doing it and the lines were still there. So I figured it was something with the medium format film I had. But then I just developed 2 sheets of 4x5 HP5 and the same lines were there. The lines ran straight across the whole sheet on the non emulsion side. With my sheet film nothing touched the film at all except for liquid and its time in the film holder. I didn't squeegee the film nor did I touch it with anything and the lines are almost the same. I have attached three photos that you can see the lines in on a sheet of film as well as from a roll of 120. Has anyone ever seen anything like this and what could be causing it? For the record both films were stand developed in Rodinal for 1 hour with minimal inversions at the beginning and 2 inversions at the half way point. Dilution was 1:100.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/alex1345/9522582212/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/alex1345/9522582882/


    http://www.flickr.com/photos/alex1345/9522582806/

  2. #2
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  3. #3

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    Do you pre-soak your films in plain water with some agitation before developing? It may be that the anti-halation layer is not being totally removed prior to immersion in the developer. Try pre-soaking for a couple of minutes (time not critical). Also, with stand development it's important that agitation be sufficient for uniform density. My tests of HP5+ sheet in HC-110 (1+123 from concentrate) for 20min showed the following results:

    Agitate first minute, then 15s every 3min >>> uniform density
    Agitate first minute, then 15s every 5min >>> uniform density
    Agitate first minute, then 15s every 6min >>> non-uniform density

    These tests were done with the film in hangers to insure they stayed submerged. Agitation was done by slowly raising/lowering the hangers while keeping them submerged. I don't do 120, so can't comment on that, except for pre-soaking.
    Last edited by silveror0; 08-17-2013 at 06:00 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #4
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Ilford recommends the no presoak be done. I've also found no need for presoak.
    Mark Barendt, Ignacio, CO

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  5. #5
    clayne's Avatar
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    I've never found pre-soak to create anything looking like scratches though. I don't think pre-soaking has anything to do with this.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    I've never found pre-soak to create anything looking like scratches though. I don't think pre-soaking has anything to do with this.
    Maybe so, but I didn't suggest that pre-soak would create scratches.

  7. #7
    clayne's Avatar
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    Okay, well I don't believe the AH has anything to do with scratches either. Personally, whenever these issues come up, it's almost never the film, but there have been some very rare cases where people have run into issues.

    The problem is that usually it's not relegated to just a single individual's film. For the film above, the OP should get the relevant emulsion, box numbers, etc. and ask Simon about it. Now, to have the *same* kind of scratches with both medium format and sheet film seems almost impossible from the factory unless the same slitter is being used and the problem were there. Pretty certain they're on a different base and hence a different master.
    Last edited by clayne; 08-17-2013 at 06:38 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  8. #8

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    My sympathies. How many HP5+ films have you developed with stand development before this problem happened and or did it only happen after your tried stand development?

    Frankly I think the odds of it being a fault with HP5+ in both 120 and 4x5 has to be very large. If it is a fault then the way film is manufactured it is likely to affect many metres of film and I'd expect other reports of the same fault

    Try another HP5+ film but this time without stand development to see if the same fault appears. You are liable to get all sorts of suggestions on the causes such as pre-soak etc and you will get others blaming stand development which appears to have a history of problems which some experience and others don't but using a "standard" development process will help establish if it is connected to stand development.

    If it happens again with the change to standard development and you can be sure that the process was completed OK then it may be time to contact Ilford.

    I hope it can be solved

    pentaxuser

  9. #9
    clayne's Avatar
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    But then I just developed 2 sheets of 4x5 HP5 and the same lines were there
    How'd you develop the 4x5? Tray?
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  10. #10

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    The sheet and 120 are on different film-bases (hence different coating, line, cutter etc) aren't they - so a manufacturing problem is only remote possibility. Nevertheless, retrieve all packing details about batch numbers and so on, in case you need them later.

    It looks almost like a crack rather than a scratch which, of course, one would expect to be more likely on the emulsion side rather than the base - unless the HP5+ has a retouching, or anti-curl, layer applied to the base side?

    Were all chemicals within a degrees of each other, including the washes? Thinking of some sort of extreme thermal problem.

    Were the stop and fixer standard products and diluted appropriately? Thinking of some sort of pH effect.

    Was there any severe flexing of the film during the loading or developing of the sheet film? The sheets look as though the film was bent back on itself hard as it was pulled out of the DDS - I discovered that little possibility, courtesy of a ten year old child and a pinhole-camera experiment. Oops.

    If you can test another sheet or roll in completely standard development then that would give a baseline regarding the process.

    If it seems that the damage really is on the film base itself before processing then look at a raw sheet, without exposure or development, and go over it with a magnifier looking for any marks.

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