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  1. #1

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    Chemical oxidation and vacuum wine stoppers!

    Darkroom liquid chemicals, we are told, have shelf lives because they deteriorate with air in the bottle.

    Having seen and purchased vacuum wine stoppers (put vacuum wine stopper in Amazon search bar) and used them on glass bottles filled with Perceptol etc., they appear to work well. But the question is is a partial vacuum enough to prevent or reduce deterioration for part time darkroom workers like me? The other question is they say not to be used for non domestic use. I guess this is only because of marketing?

    i have to say it is great to be part of this forum - I am not alone!

    russell

  2. #2
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwhb12 View Post
    they appear to work well
    Then that's all you have to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by rwhb12 View Post
    The other question is they say not to be used for non domestic use. I guess this is only because of marketing?
    Once you have bought it, you can use it for whatever purpose you like.

    Sometimes there are suggestions to replace the air with CO2 but that will cause the developer to become more acidic as CO2 absorbed by water becomes carbonic acid.

    p.s. It's oxidisation, not oxidation - and don't let any Americans convince you otherwise!


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwhb12 View Post
    Darkroom liquid chemicals, we are told, have shelf lives because they deteriorate with air in the bottle.

    Having seen and purchased vacuum wine stoppers (put vacuum wine stopper in Amazon search bar) and used them on glass bottles filled with Perceptol etc., they appear to work well. But the question is is a partial vacuum enough to prevent or reduce deterioration for part time darkroom workers like me? The other question is they say not to be used for non domestic use. I guess this is only because of marketing?

    i have to say it is great to be part of this forum - I am not alone!

    russell
    Hi Russel,

    The wine stoppers are a fine idea, especially if you are recycling a bottle that can use it.

    Some people add marbles to their bottles to "top up" the fluid in bottle and eliminate any air space before capping, that works with any cap. Others use accordion style collapsable bottles.

    For bottles holding small amounts of chemical I just displace the air with a shot propane/butane.

    My favorite method of storage of prepared chemicals is a "wine box"; once it's empty it gets a good bath, then I make up the chemical and pour it in the bladder, reinsert the valve, expel all the air, then put it back in the box. This allows dispensing without introducing any air into the storage container.

    All of these methods help and are worth doing, but none give me the confidence to go much past the manufacturers recommended storage times.

    Simply put, the cost of the chemicals is so small compared to the rest the costs of getting a shot that it simply isn't worth messing with.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  4. #4

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    Slight pair of sideways. How we preserve precision electronic parts for decades is under a dry nitrogen blanket. Slight low pressure bleed into a closed small storage shelf space. Inert gas is interactive. So only the contaminates will continue to react.

    Wine box bladders.. is there enough flow for direct to Nikor type tanks or is bladder storage only?

    Have been considering using cubitainer type storage. The wine bladder should be less porous.

    For now it's half gallon rectangular jugs, not elegant but pours fast.

  5. #5

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    Bloxygen is my method. Has worked beautifully for me with all kinds of developers including the finicky Studionol.

  6. #6
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    For me the wine boxes are typically for storage of "stock" mixes that need to be; measured for dilution, measured for replenishing, or are measured directly into JOBO beakers for printing.

    The bladders flow real quick when full, when getting the last bit though, its slow.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post

    The bladders flow real quick when full, when getting the last bit though, its slow.
    True and some bladders seem better than others but all will get nearly all the liquid out and the last remaining drops can be squeezed out by taking the bladder out of the box and squeezing by hand. By that stage the bladder anyway needs a clean out or if it is the same liquid to go back in, then a simple re-fill. Each bladder will do several re-fills before you have to buy a new wine box and drink the filthy stuff again to get a fresh bladder.

    It's a dirty part of the whole process but someone's got to do it. Lots of sacrifices have to be made in photography

    pentaxuser

  8. #8
    fotch's Avatar
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    Replacing air with nitrogen I think is the preferred method although it may not be practical/affordable for everyone. Its not just the cost savings of chemicals, rather, the convenience of having chemicals ready to use that you can trust, without always mixing fresh. JMHO
    Items for sale or trade at www.Camera35.com

  9. #9
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pentaxuser View Post
    True and some bladders seem better than others but all will get nearly all the liquid out and the last remaining drops can be squeezed out by taking the bladder out of the box and squeezing by hand. By that stage the bladder anyway needs a clean out or if it is the same liquid to go back in, then a simple re-fill. Each bladder will do several re-fills before you have to buy a new wine box and drink the filthy stuff again to get a fresh bladder.

    It's a dirty part of the whole process but someone's got to do it. Lots of sacrifices have to be made in photography

    pentaxuser
    Speaking of that.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #10

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    I've used those wine stoppers for wine, but never did any tests to see just how long they keep their vacuum. I suspect the point about "not to be used for non domestic use" is not about marketing, but rather that the seal is not reliable enough for industrial use (or tested, certified, whatever).

    I use brown beer bottles and a bottle capper (available at any homebrewing shop). I can fill very close to the top so only a bit of air. I can fill 12 or 22 oz bottles, so can tailor the size to what I need. A partial bottle gets a wine cork for a stopper. Obviously needs to be labeled (but I don't store beer in my darkroom).
    "Far more critical than what we know or do not know is what we do not want to know." - Eric Hoffer

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