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  1. #11

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    Another take on any of the Zone System approaches is that with our materials and the exposure / development process, we must do our best to capture as much of the original scene as possible into the range of the film/negative material. From there we can interpret with printing (similar to what Michael says re the print).
    +1 what Jim said - I remember a story about EW. He was shooting a sand dune scene, the story teller (don't remember who - maybe AA or Minor White, my personal favorite) says Weston took a reading (this would be an old Weston general purpose, photo voltaic non spot meter, just read the whole scene). He saw the reading and said, "I'll give it 3 more. . .". He intuitively knew that a scene consisting mostly of very high values would require more exposure to overcome the meter's tendancy to treat all subjects as a normal landscape, and "place" the values more appropriately on the film. This kind of thinking and intuition might be what led AA to develop a more exacting and systemic approach.

  2. #12

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    The bottom line here is fairly straight forward. When it comes to talented and skilled photographers/printers, ultimately the tonality of the print has essentially nothing to do with which exposure/development "system" is used, and nothing to do with which country the optics come from.

  3. #13

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    I'm a die hard Leica user. Tried all the best Leitz lenses. And believe it or not, the two lenses that are the most leica-esque are the... Noct-nikkor and the 28 f1.4. Magical. They beat anything leica I have ever tried.
    The only problem is that I have serious objections to using my F6 when there's an M next to it.

  4. #14
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Umut Sarac View Post
    ... I found BTZS system years ago and I did not see a good picture done with it , all were average. I found them like pencil drawings or gun engravings where the artists escapes from the black and everything is highly neutral.
    Hi Umut,

    I think you might be disappointed by the average quality Black Ink Offset Lithographic reproduction, compared to other higher-quality Duotone art editions that you are used to seeing. But even if not that, you are missing the lessons BTZS teaches by holding the example photography by teacher and students... to higher standards than necessary to see the points being illustrated.

    When you use an exposure system, the result is often a negative that holds enough detail in the shadows to show texture IF DESIRED... And control of the highlights (again IF DESIRED) to avoid bleak whites. You can take that negative and do anything you want with it.

    For exciting examples of the capability of the Zone System, I look at Minor White's examples and illustrations. In fact BTZS includes a reproduction of "Moon and Wall Encrustations" on page 4... quite possibly a very drab gray wall when the camera was setup in front of it.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Umut Sarac View Post
    Only BTZS prints I have ever see an photo magazine article , first result when you searched and everything was awful , other source was their forum where there were awful pictures. John Sexton prints are amazing , I havent an idea he used the system , IMHO japanese optics are the enemy of good photography , if you want a good print , you must be 4 times luckier than german optics user. They always trace a wrong doing in the photograph , I want to talk about optics , if you change the distances between elements , you can get over corrected , high contrast images , this is for nikon and mamiya users , they dont design perfect lenses , they manufacture over corrected lenses and everything gets blown , colors goes ugly , high light details lost , ugly noise apeears and whats not.

    At classifieds a nikon em goes for 10 dollars and lens goes for 10 dollars. Real photographers only pay that price to them. I always discusted from nikon since I was 14. There were hundreds of chromatic not corrected pictures at photo technique and amateur photographer.

    I did not hear that Ansel and Edward Weston ever used japanese optics , in 1924 there were 3000 optics manufacturer at Germany and since that time they published highly technical 3500 books.

    If I was young and still working , own a Leica and money for film and travel , I would show you how German optics work. There are few pictures from that time at gallery and they speak for themselves.
    That is the most ignorant pile of bigotry I've heard here in a while, and it's got what to do with BTZS? Are you here just to troll and whinge about things that are different from what you do?

    We know you venerate Ernst Leitz and while I can agree that his lenses were excellent for their time, there is more to the world than 35mm and a hell of a lot more to the world than german lenses. And I say this as someone who has used most of the classic brands (Mamiya, Zeiss, Nikon, Schneider, Rodenstock and Minolta) pretty heavily: if you have blown highlights, ugly colours (probably clipping on one channel), missing shadows or bad contrast ratios, it's 100% operator error.

    The quality of a photograph is all in the artistry of composition and control of light. Professional equipment from any of the major manufacturers (i.e. not a Lomo or Seagull) is quite capable of rendering anyone's vision well enough that you'll never be able to tell which brand was used. There are no magic bullets.

    BTZS is all about choosing an appropriate exposure and contrast for a scene, in order to capture all of the detail you intended to. Following it says nothing about the artistry or content of an image and has nothing to do with which brand of lens you used.

  6. #16

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    Is this thread a discussion of lenses or BTZS?

  7. #17
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    May I suggest that we all get the book 'Quit Light' by John Sexton, a good cup of coffee (not the developer type, mind you), sit down and just gaze at the images for - let's say - half an hour?

    Then we all come back here and share what we saw .....

    To help you to get started, just finish this sentence in max 5 lines:
    "When I looked at the images I saw ......."
    Last edited by TheToadMen; 10-08-2013 at 03:37 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    "Have fun and catch that light beam!"
    Bert from Holland
    my blog: http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl
    my Linkedin pinhole group: http://tinyurl.com/pinholegroup


    * I'm an analogue enthusiast, trying not to fall into the digital abyss.
    * My favorite cameras: Hasselblad SWC, Leica SL, Leica M7, Russian FKD 18x24, Bronica SQ-B and RF645, Rolleiflex T2, Nikon F4s, Agfa Clack and my pinhole cameras

  8. #18

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    Polyglot, don't waste your time feeding the troll... This guy is hopeless.
    "The problem with photography is that it only deals with appearances." Duane Michals

    "A photograph is a secret of a secret. The more it tells you the less you know." Diane Arbus

  9. #19
    baachitraka's Avatar
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    'Quiet Light' - John Sexton.
    OM-1n: Do I need to own a Leica?
    Rolleicord Va: Humble.
    Holga 120GFN: Amazingly simple yet it produces outstanding negatives to print.

  10. #20
    Jim Noel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polyglot View Post
    Yes. You are missing a lot of points and/or not really looking. Try googling John Sexton for a start.
    John Sexton is an expert at the Zone System having worked as Ansel's assistant for several years. I have never heard him mention BTZS.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS]Films NOT Dead - Just getting fixed![/FONT]

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