Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 71,470   Posts: 1,570,913   Online: 883
      
Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 91
  1. #41
    Steve Sherman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Shooter
    ULarge Format
    Posts
    521
    Images
    2
    Thanks for the kind words everyone, as I reread the post to make sure it all made sense, I couldn't help but notice, no where did I use the word / term "sharpness or acutance"
    Because it doesn't pertain to my interest and use of the technique, truth told I believe those two terms would be a function of Resolving power of both the lens and the film.

    Bob, looking forward to 2014 in Toronto, you take me on the greatest Taxi rides!

    Cheers!
    Real Photographs are Born Wet !
    http://www.steve-sherman.com

  2. #42
    Ian Grant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    West Midlands, UK, and Turkey
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    16,392
    Images
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sherman View Post
    Thanks for the kind words everyone, as I reread the post to make sure it all made sense, I couldn't help but notice, no where did I use the word / term "sharpness or acutance"
    Because it doesn't pertain to my interest and use of the technique, truth told I believe those two terms would be a function of Resolving power of both the lens and the film.

    Bob, looking forward to 2014 in Toronto, you take me on the greatest Taxi rides!

    Cheers!
    No but you did mention manipulating micro-contrast

    This was Geoffrey Crawley's offering on the terminology back in 1960/61 in his series of articles on Developers in the British Journal of Photography:

    " Sharpness " -the overall impression of a print or projected image, measured scientifically as "acutance ", seen from normal viewing distance.

    " Definition " -the extent to which fine detail is recognisably rendered in a print, etc. When acutance of fine detail is good, then definition is good.

    " Acutance " -the contrast at the edge of significant detail, a scientific measurement of the density gradient at that point.

    " Resolving Power "
    -the scientific measurement of the actual fineness of detail recordable by a lens, film, or developer, or any combination of these three.

    Missing from that list is tonality as it's quite different, but essentially controlling development to get the best possible negatives with the tonal range you require to print from helps to improve or prevent the loss of fine detail which is controlled by localised micro-contrast, and in theory that fine detail can be described in the above terms.

    However I fully understand that your own technique is about controlling the tonal range rather than improving sharpness & acutance, that comes as a naturarl consequence.

    Ian
    Last edited by Ian Grant; 10-14-2013 at 04:55 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #43
    Klainmeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    1,493
    Images
    30
    Wow, what a great read. Thanks Steve, Ian, and those who have contributed!

    As a side note, I've been using Acros 100 and Neopan 400 for about 7-8 years exclusively with Pyrocat, but whence I switched to 4x5 recently I decided to give FP4 and HP5 a try. The tonality of my prints jump off the page...what a difference! This is with semi-stand development of the two, at box speed, for 13 min.

    Might have to give this method a try. Thanks again!
    K.S. Klain

  4. #44
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Toronto-Ontario
    Shooter
    Med. Format RF
    Posts
    4,682
    Images
    14
    We are bringing Steve Sherman back to Toronto again next year. May 1st weekend... He sold out fast last year and the workers all appreciated Steve's common sense teaching style and his genuine concern for each students needs is humbling for me, he is very patient with each student. Already we have a printmaking worker from Seattle Washington planning to come..
    The Contact Photo Festival is opened the weekend we bring Steve in. This year we also are bringing Paul Paletti at the same time as Steve to talk about collecting photography. If you have ever the chance to go to his gallery in Louisville, well be prepared to be amazed and pleased. He has a fantastic collection.

  5. #45
    Steve Sherman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Shooter
    ULarge Format
    Posts
    521
    Images
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    No but you did mention manipulating micro-contrast

    This was Geoffrey Crawley's offering on the terminology back in 1960/61 in his series of articles on Developers in the British Journal of Photography:

    " Sharpness " -the overall impression of a print or projected image, measured scientifically as "acutance ", seen from normal viewing distance.

    " Definition " -the extent to which fine detail is recognisably rendered in a print, etc. When acutance of fine detail is good, then definition is good.

    " Acutance " -the contrast at the edge of significant detail, a scientific measurement of the density gradient at that point.

    " Resolving Power "
    -the scientific measurement of the actual fineness of detail recordable by a lens, film, or developer, or any combination of these three.

    Missing from that list is tonality as it's quite different, but essentially controlling development to get the best possible negatives with the tonal range you require to print from helps to improve or prevent the loss of fine detail which is controlled by localised micro-contrast, and in theory that fine detail can be described in the above terms.

    However I fully understand that your own technique is about controlling the tonal range rather than improving sharpness & acutance, that comes as a naturarl consequence.

    Ian
    Thanks Ian for sharing Crawley's terminology from some years ago, as I know the negative and image which I posted with this response I believe 3 of the 4 terms contained in Crawley's observations are present. What struck me most when I first saw this negative was the taller buildings far off in the background, the detail and Micro Contrast around the small windows and also the Verizon logo was something which I had never seen from a conventionally processed negative.

    "Resolving Power" from Crawley's terminology, from my logic is not so much about the Process of Development as it is a product of a Pyro base developer, the tanning effects and hardening of the gelatin very early in the development progression. These are all characteristics of a Pyro based developer and regardless of Dilution or Agitation will always produce negatives of higher acutance. As I stated in an earlier post, it is the combination of several small gains or traits when joined together yield a significant result in the Process. Hence the off hand comment of Magic Bullet, there are so many factors at work here all impacting the only real interest I have, to control and manipulate Micro Contrast.

    The image is a raw scan from 2005 when I first gave a workshop on this process down in the Washington DC area.

    Please see this link for a lengthy discussion on the image and the process.

    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/2...vie-photo.html
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DR Edit Print 1Acopy.jpg  
    Real Photographs are Born Wet !
    http://www.steve-sherman.com

  6. #46
    c6h6o3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    3,191
    Images
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    A point that's not being made so leading to misconceptions it the format/negative size. Stand and semi-stand development can work well with larger formats and you do get better adjacency effect which means prints appear sharper. But with smaller formats it can look awful.

    I use Pyrocat HD with HP5 and at the recommended 1+1+100 dilution with inversion agitation and I get the benefits of good edge effects and micro-contrast which are inherent with this type of developer containing Pyrocatechin or Pyrogallol anyway, due to the tanning effects of the developer.

    In making the choice of taking the edges effects to greater extremes has to be balance with the intended uses of the negatives, for instance a 35mm negative which is going to be enlarged will give images where the edge effects look like unwanted artefacts, there may be cases where they contribute to an overall graphic effect. When the extreme acutance developers were available (Definol, Acutol-S, Hyfin, Kodak HDD etc) there were so striking grapgic usually quite high contrast images made using 35mm films - these developers weren't as fine grained as Pyrocat either.

    Where this technique comes into it's element is Large format where there's little enlargement and particularly contact prints. I'm refering to the edge effects thouh here.
    Semi-stand is great for enlargements, too. It's the only way I develop roll film now. The attached image is from a 6x6 cm 400 TMax negative developed semi-stand in Harvey's 777. There's no visible stain with this developer, but I believe there's significant UV stain. In any case, semi-stand gives me printable negatives on the same roll even with markedly different lighting conditions between the frames. The process is very forgiving as long as you don't overdevelop.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails koi.jpg  
    Jim

  7. #47
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Beaverton, OR, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,793
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by c6h6o3 View Post
    In any case, semi-stand gives me printable negatives on the same roll even with markedly different lighting conditions between the frames. The process is very forgiving as long as you don't overdevelop.
    And I get those same benefits with DD-X and normal development. And we are both right. And Steve and Ian are right too.

    My point is that our personal best practices (aka our own personal magic bullets) won't necessarily translate into good and reliable results for others.

    Our expectations for our work always differs, and there is more than one way to skin a cat.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  8. #48
    Ian Grant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    West Midlands, UK, and Turkey
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    16,392
    Images
    148
    With respect Mark

    Pyro is considered by many to have had its day, but in respect of modern sensitive materials it is suggested that its wonderful versatility is awaiting rediscovery. Let us hope that the younger generation will not be content with anything that falls short of that standard of perfection “pyro quality.” (quote from 1941)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Sherman View Post
    "Resolving Power" from Crawley's terminology, from my logic is not so much about the Process of Development as it is a product of a Pyro base developer, the tanning effects and hardening of the gelatin very early in the development progression. These are all characteristics of a Pyro based developer and regardless of Dilution or Agitation will always produce negatives of higher acutance. As I stated in an earlier post, it is the combination of several small gains or traits when joined together yield a significant result in the Process. Hence the off hand comment of Magic Bullet, there are so many factors at work here all impacting the only real interest I have, to control and manipulate Micro Contrast
    Steve, I see the "Resolving Power" as the result of the combination of the film, developer and technique. In this respect I'd put Xtol and Rodinal on a par with Pyrocat out of the developers I've used, yes there are developers and techniques which might give more apparent sharpness usually with increased grain which reduces "definition" of fine detail, or compromises the tonal range.

    There's unique characteristics of Pyro developers that are harder to define but it's the good acutance and micro contrast along with the ability to hold a good shadow detail and delicate highlights. As you say “it is the combination of several small gains or traits when joined together yield a significant result in the Process.” I've said many times that Pyrocat HD is like Rodinal on Steroids it's a remarkably good developer.

    This is what's known as “pyro quality.”

    This quality is by no means imaginary, and may be attributed partly to the faint warmth of even a non-staining pyro image, and largely to the fact that pyro reduces with perfect proportionality,that is to say, it produces a characteristic curve which is straighter, and less liable to distortion than any other reducer,in spite of varying conditions of use. (quote from 1941)

    Ian

  9. #49
    markbarendt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Beaverton, OR, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    5,793
    Blog Entries
    3
    Images
    19
    With respect Ian, is that quote supposed to be some kind of objective proof?
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  10. #50
    c6h6o3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    3,191
    Images
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by markbarendt View Post
    And I get those same benefits with DD-X and normal development. And we are both right. And Steve and Ian are right too.

    My point is that our personal best practices (aka our own personal magic bullets) won't necessarily translate into good and reliable results for others.

    Our expectations for our work always differs, and there is more than one way to skin a cat.
    I have no magic bullets. I use minimal agitation development with large format negatives when it's appropriate to the image. When it's not I use traditional tray development. I use it for roll film out of convenience. And no matter which method I use I might use a staining developer or a non-staining one, again depending on the image. Different strokes for different pictures.
    Jim



 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin