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  1. #1

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    MGWT/Moersch SE3 Cold

    Just an update on the continuing attempts by people to cool MGWT. I finally got around to testing Moersch SE3 "Cold" in comparison with Ilford Multigrade. Perhaps somewhat unexpectedly I observed a very noticeable difference in colour, SE3 producing a substantial shift toward a more neutral-grey tone. I tested it at the 1+1+20 dilution in comparison with Ilford Multigrade 1+9. Test exposures were through a wedge at grade 1. Development time was 2min at 21C. Post-development processing as per Ilford max permanence sequence without toning as well as with toning in KRST. Toning time was 5min at dilutions of 1+9, 1+19, 1+39.

    Realistically I can't possibly scan with any sort of colour accuracy, so instead if anyone is interested I'm offering to mail the "swatches" which can then be shared with others.
    Last edited by Michael R 1974; 11-17-2013 at 04:04 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Clarity

  2. #2
    Rafal Lukawiecki's Avatar
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    I'm very interested in your findings, Michael. I've been corresponding with a few people, I chatted with JS, and I had an in-depth reply from the good people at Harman. My next try will be with nitrobenzimidazole and phenyl-mercapotetrazole, both antifoggaants should be arriving this week. I plan to post results onto my older thread http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/1...compounds.html

    I'd be happy to exchange swatches with you.

    By the way, are you referring to the older SE3 Cold which contained hydroquinone, or the newer, special edition, ascorbic-phenidone/dimezone one? So far, the coolest tone I've managed to get was using RS-14, which is ascorbic-dimezone-s with a fair amount of BTA. This is what I'm hoping to further amend using those two antifoggants, but I'm pleased with what I've got already.
    Last edited by Rafal Lukawiecki; 11-17-2013 at 07:14 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Rafal Lukawiecki
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  3. #3

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    Hi Rafal, if you're interested I can mail you the samples. Sal Santamaura may also want to have a look.

    I didn't know there was an earlier version of SE3 which included HQ - although I just checked the MSDS on Freestyle's site and it does indeed list HQ. The one I have reads "special edition" on each bottle and seems to match what is on the Moersch website - Ascorbic Acid-Phenidone/Dimezone. I bought it a little over a year ago.

    The most neutralized/cold MGWT I've seen so far (not in person but on APUG) is the test Brian Steinberger ran in SE6 Blue. To be honest I didn't expect to see a marked difference between SE3 and a neutral developer, but it is fairly noticeable.

    However I am somewhat puzzled by the Selenium toning results - not that it necessarily matters. There is little change in colour in either case at the 1+19 and 1+49 dilutions. However at 1+9, for some reason the sample developed in SE3 shows a much greater colour shift than the sample developed in Multigrade. While the Multigrade sample shows the expected shift from the untoned colour to a plum/eggplant tone, the SE3 sample ALSO shifted to the plum, almost purple colour even though the untoned SE3 sample is significantly more neutral-grey than the untoned Multigrade sample. And the SE3 shift to plum is more pronounced. I can't explain the result, but it would seem to indicate if one wants to retain the neutralizing effect of SE3, Selenium is not a good choice unless it is diluted to 1+39 (or even more). Not that one would choose Selenium as a "cooling" toner for warmtone papers anyway.

    Of course all these findings are subject to viewing conditions/lighting and subjective impressions.

    In any case, for me it was more of a curiosity than anything else.

  4. #4

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    I'd be interested to read how this goes - I haven't been following the previous threads (but will read it too).

    Speaking about Wolfgang's developers - have you tried his SE6 Blue? I don't know how it'll behave with MGWT but use it frequently with Fomatone and like the results very much.

    A.
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  5. #5

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    Andreios, I haven't personally tried SE6 with MGWT but Brian Steinberger did and it seemed to work nicely for the purpose. The discussion was here:

    http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/i...87993-p-6.html

  6. #6
    Rafal Lukawiecki's Avatar
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    Michael, thank you for sending the strips, which have arrived today. I must say that the cool tone you have obtained seems similar to the one I have been getting using my modified DS-14 (mentioned on the other thread). I will try to make similar strips the next time I have a chance, because it will help in a side-by-side comparison and will be more objective. However, I would like to add to the pile another couple of tests, to be done with two other antifoggants, which I have just received, too.

    I will post the strips to you, too, when I have this done.

    Many thanks for mailing those to me.
    Rafal Lukawiecki
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  7. #7

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    Rafal - what do you think of the strip that was toned in Selenium 1+9 after development in SE3? That's the one that puzzles me, like it completely reverses the "cooling" and goes even more plum than than when treated the same way after development in Multigrade.

  8. #8
    Rafal Lukawiecki's Avatar
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    Yes, I have the same experience, that is KRST 1+9 does impart a generally similar tone on MGWT no matter what developer modification has been applied. However, there is a difference, and I think it may also depend on the grade at which the print was exposed. I'll try to incorporate this into my strips. Overall, however, KRST 1+9, 1 min 15 s upwards at 20C, after Ansco 103, 130 BTA, DS-14 BTA, and ID-62 has a slightly different tone, ranging from browner to more plum/purple, depending on the developer and the amount of BTA in it. DS-14 followed by KRST 1+9 1m15s retains cooler highlights but heads gently brown in deeper shadows, somewhat in balance.

    I wonder if PMT of NBMA will make a difference. As soon as I've shipped my current print order, which has kept me a bit busier, I'll get back to testing, and I will make those new strips, exposing at different grades, too, to put that hypothesis to sleep.
    Rafal Lukawiecki
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  9. #9

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    I had wonderful print color from the Ilford Coldtone Developer on MGWT and Seagull VC Warm. Ever so slightly green, a lot like the old Ilford Galerie in Dektol. I've not tried the SE3 from Moersch, I'm a big fan of the ECO4812 and the SE1. I will absolutely add some SE3 to the next order! I'm curious now as to what it will do on the Adox Variowarmtone and the FOMA 532.

    Thanks!

  10. #10

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    The test strips arrived here yesterday (thanks Michael!) and I just evaluated them in a room illuminated by bright, diffused sunlight. Herewith my observations:
    • In Multigrade developer, this paper yields warm yellow tones. Only heavy selenium toning has any significant effect, where it merely darkens the lowest tones without noticeable color change. This is consistent with my trials.
    • Compared to my prints on this paper that were developed in SE6 Blue, the untoned SE3 Cold sample was slightly less warm/green. With light selenium toning, Michael's swatches were slightly more neutral than lightly toned SE6 prints. Both, however, retained a hint of green that I've found no way to completely eliminate.
    • Both Michael's and my heavily toned SE3/SE6 prints turned plum/purple, a result I dislike and would not intentionally pursue in actual images.

    Recently, I have been printing on Galerie, developed in SE6 Blue 1+15 and toned in KRST 1+20 for 4 minutes at 75 degrees. This combination provides the most completely neutral image tone I've ever achieved. It will be interesting to see whether combining one of the newly announced Ilford VC papers and, perhaps, a Moersch developer will deliver comparable neutrality. Perhaps our struggle to neutralize MGFB WT has been overcome by events.

    Thanks again to Michael for going to the trouble of sending those swatches.

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