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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    I think it needs to be pointed out that bromide CONCENTRATION is the important thing in a developing solution. And concentration can never by reduced by dumping part of the solution nor by the carry-out due to wet film or paper. Solution volume is reduced, but not concentration.
    Bromide concentration is reduced when the volume is increased by the addition of replenisher which usually contains no bromide. If the amount of replenisjer per roll is small then it is important to periodically dump a large portion of the developer to bring the bromide concentration back to a satisfactory value.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

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  2. #32

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    Gerald, you're not describing a proper replenished system. It sounds like some sort of variable system where the bromide level never stabilizes.

    In a proper system, the bromide concentration should be stable, at a level defined by the formulator. If you were to process some unit of film, such as a roll, the specified volume of replenisher should be just right to maintain the bromide concentration. It shouldn't matter whether the tank volume is 1 gallon or 100 gallons, the film/replenisher relationships stay the same.

    I've spent a fair amount of my life setting up and troubleshooting regenerated and replenished systems, so I'm not just speaking hypothetically. If you find that the bulk of your developer is running at a different concentration than your current input, then it's either not a proper replenished system or you have some sort of process problem going on.

  3. #33

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    What is the negative effect of having a high concentration of bromide in a developer, paper developer in particular.

    thanX,
    tim

  4. #34
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buggs View Post
    What is the negative effect of having a high concentration of bromide in a developer, paper developer in particular.

    thanX,
    tim
    It acts as a restrainer, so it holds back development. In some cases, and in limited quantity, this can be a much desired quality!
    But too much of it, and you start to negate the effect the developer should be having, i.e. developing the film.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by presspass View Post
    As far as I know, Xtol is the only developer that also serves as its own replenisher.
    sprint film developer works as its own replenisher too

  6. #36

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    thanX Thomas, that's exactly what I thought.

    I'm thinking more about ansco 130 where I can directly observe the results of bromide build up. Shortly I'll be mixing up a fresh batch and plan on comparing prints with fresh and used developer. Then I should be able to make an informed decision about topping off my bottle of used dev.

    tim

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buggs View Post
    thanX Thomas, that's exactly what I thought.

    I'm thinking more about ansco 130 where I can directly observe the results of bromide build up. Shortly I'll be mixing up a fresh batch and plan on comparing prints with fresh and used developer. Then I should be able to make an informed decision about topping off my bottle of used dev.

    tim
    130 works great for film too, great developer to work with.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Gerald, you're not describing a proper replenished system. It sounds like some sort of variable system where the bromide level never stabilizes.
    The bromide concentration may stabilize but not at a level that is desired. For example with a developer like D-76 or D-23 it is impossible to return the replenished developer to its original state because the fresh developer contains no bromide whatsoever. All that can be done is to keep the bromide concentration at a useable level. Such systems usually require a large portion of used developer to be periodically dumped and fresh developer added. This problem also occurs with developers that do not have a separate replenisher like Xtol or HC-110 which are self replenished.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  9. #39
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    The bromide concentration may stabilize but not at a level that is desired. For example with a developer like D-76 or D-23 it is impossible to return the replenished developer to its original state because the fresh developer contains no bromide whatsoever. All that can be done is to keep the bromide concentration at a useable level. Such systems usually require a large portion of used developer to be periodically dumped and fresh developer added. This problem also occurs with developers that do not have a separate replenisher like Xtol or HC-110 which are self replenished.
    But Gerald, that's why good labs were doing control strips, to keep things consistent and avoid pitfalls.

    And frankly, whether you like the results from replenished developers or not is a matter of taste. From what I have observed, I see only positives, usually finer grain, sharper negs, and more pleasing tonality.

    For the home user doing small batches it's all about keeping a critical eye on the process, and do as you say if bromide levels go out of balance or acceptable range.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    But Gerald, that's why good labs were doing control strips, to keep things consistent and avoid pitfalls.
    True but all the test strips tell you is how much replenisher to use and when you must dump some developer. They do nothing to obviate the problems I describe. IIRC correct Glakides devotes an entire chapter on replenishment. I will try and find my copy. I have nothing against people using replenishment but don't see it as being practical unless one is maintaining a large amount of developer and has a high and constant throughput. For the average person on APUG I think a one shot like HC-110 or Rodinal is a better choice. I don't like being in the darkroom. So I attempt to remove as many variables as possible from my system. Using a one shot I know exactly how my negatives will print.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 12-17-2013 at 11:29 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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