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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Gerald, you're not describing a proper replenished system. It sounds like some sort of variable system where the bromide level never stabilizes.
    The bromide concentration may stabilize but not at a level that is desired. For example with a developer like D-76 or D-23 it is impossible to return the replenished developer to its original state because the fresh developer contains no bromide whatsoever. All that can be done is to keep the bromide concentration at a useable level. Such systems usually require a large portion of used developer to be periodically dumped and fresh developer added. This problem also occurs with developers that do not have a separate replenisher like Xtol or HC-110 which are self replenished.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    The bromide concentration may stabilize but not at a level that is desired. For example with a developer like D-76 or D-23 it is impossible to return the replenished developer to its original state because the fresh developer contains no bromide whatsoever. All that can be done is to keep the bromide concentration at a useable level. Such systems usually require a large portion of used developer to be periodically dumped and fresh developer added. This problem also occurs with developers that do not have a separate replenisher like Xtol or HC-110 which are self replenished.
    But Gerald, that's why good labs were doing control strips, to keep things consistent and avoid pitfalls.

    And frankly, whether you like the results from replenished developers or not is a matter of taste. From what I have observed, I see only positives, usually finer grain, sharper negs, and more pleasing tonality.

    For the home user doing small batches it's all about keeping a critical eye on the process, and do as you say if bromide levels go out of balance or acceptable range.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    But Gerald, that's why good labs were doing control strips, to keep things consistent and avoid pitfalls.
    True but all the test strips tell you is how much replenisher to use and when you must dump some developer. They do nothing to obviate the problems I describe. IIRC correct Glakides devotes an entire chapter on replenishment. I will try and find my copy. I have nothing against people using replenishment but don't see it as being practical unless one is maintaining a large amount of developer and has a high and constant throughput. For the average person on APUG I think a one shot like HC-110 or Rodinal is a better choice. I don't like being in the darkroom. So I attempt to remove as many variables as possible from my system. Using a one shot I know exactly how my negatives will print.
    Last edited by Gerald C Koch; 12-18-2013 at 12:29 AM. Click to view previous post history.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    True but all the test strips tell you is how much replenisher to use and when you must dump some developer. They do nothing to obviate the problems I describe. IIRC correct Glakides devotes an entire chapter on replenishment. I will try and find my copy. I have nothing against people using replenishment but don't see it as being practical unless one is maintaining a large amount of developer and has a high throughput.
    Depends on the developer. Have you ever tried?

    I just finished a five year stint maintaining not one, but two replenished developers for film, and am maintaining a replenished print developer since about eight years.
    Not once have I had to dump and start over, and results have been way above expectation.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Depends on the developer. Have you ever tried?
    Many years ago I tried Microphen with replenishment. It should have been a better candidate than say D-76. I was not impressed with the results. I switched to using HC-110 and Rodinal and never looked back.

    At one time there was an article on the unblinkingeye website describing Harvey's Panthermic 777 developer which was used with replenishment. It described the need to periodically dump a portion of the developer. It was very seldom that the entire bath was dumped.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

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  6. #46
    Mainecoonmaniac's Avatar
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    Does anybody use test strips to monitor the strength of their replenished soup?
    "Photography, like surfing, is an infinite process, a constantly evolving exploration of life."
    Aaron Chang

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    At one time there was an article on the unblinkingeye website describing Harvey's Panthermic 777 developer which was used with replenishment. It described the need to periodically dump a portion of the developer. It was very seldom that the entire bath was dumped.
    the MYTHIC 777 !

    we used to replenish DK50 for 1000 sheets ( maybe more ? ) take some out, put DK50R in
    then when we made fresh we'd season it with 1/3 the previous tank.
    made it mellow, and perfect ...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    I don't like being in the darkroom. So I attempt to remove as many variables as possible from my system. Using a one shot I know exactly how my negatives will print.
    The only "times" I ever had my replenished Xtol line give me any variation were: 1) When I was seasoning a fresh batch; 2) when it was teaching me something.

    Like any good tool, like the DD-X I use (and even re-use per Ilford's instructions), like the WD2D+ I play with one-shot here and there, like micro replenished LPD, like my micro replenished C-41 and RA work: when I strip away/analyze my results and failures, I invariably find the tool in question was doing exactly what it was advertised to do.

    I'm not suggesting you start a replenished line, it is work to learn any new system, but there are real practical advantages to using one even for people shooting small volumes.

    A great example of this is people who shoot say two sheets of 4x5 on a friend's portrait one weekend, and they only have a Nikor tank (or similar) to develop that film in, and it holds about a liter or so of chemicals. People like this have a choice; go one shot and dump a liter of chemicals that hasn't been fully utilized, or wait until they have a "tank-full" of film (tell their buddy it's going to be a few months), or spend 35ml of Xtol stock (or whatever #ml replenisher is in use) on a replenished line.

    This scales up perfectly too. A portrait shop can do two sheets after each sitting (send the client out for a coffee while they wait) whether that's one a week or 5 a day.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  9. #49
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    Many years ago I tried Microphen with replenishment. It should have been a better candidate than say D-76. I was not impressed with the results. I switched to using HC-110 and Rodinal and never looked back.

    At one time there was an article on the unblinkingeye website describing Harvey's Panthermic 777 developer which was used with replenishment. It described the need to periodically dump a portion of the developer. It was very seldom that the entire bath was dumped.
    I see. Well, for those of us that have done replenishment on a steady basis, with small volumes, and make it work with no fuss, I simply beg to differ regarding the results and the amount of maintenance it takes to keep it up and running. There was absolutely no trouble doing it, and processing zero rolls for several weeks was not an issue.
    The print developer does get radically recycled as the gallon kit gets reused, but I'm just following instructions. I have never tried to continue replenishing LPD without dumping most of the batch at the end of each gallon cycle.

    I think we are at two flip sides of this coin, and I'm happy to agree to disagree with you.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #50

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    Yeesh. Please everyone read what Kodak has to say about replenishment. Perhaps it will add some perspective. It is a compromise for economy, not much more than that.

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