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  1. #11

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    How about 2-bath and then straight to toner? Second bath with Hypo and sulfite only.

  2. #12
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    Bill, I'm certain you do not need to fully wash between fixer and toner. I have never had any significant staining going from fix (2 bath) to holding tray to KRST (1+10 or 1+20). Usually this would be with Emaks K-888, but also MCC110, Galerie, and MGIV. Selenium toner is 30% Ammonium Thiosulphate; it already has fixer in it.

    Selenium toner is also used as a fix strength test (search threads, numerous ones with PE chiming in) where Se toner will stain if there is still undeveloped silver left - because the toner is effectively "developing" that silver. Now I do recognize that there's another range of staining possible with pH levels that some people have run into, but this hasn't happened to me.

    dev -> stop -> fix1 (2-3 min) -> hold (1-2 hours), fix2 (2 min) -> hold (5 minutes until I'm done with fix2 of all held prints) -> toner ->wash.

    The fix baths I use are Arista odorless fixer, 1:4 ratio. I think Kodak Rapid Fix 1:7 is too weak!

    Here's the MSDS for Arista Premium odorless fixer:

    Ammonium Thiosulphate: 45-50%
    Sodium Bisulfite: 5-8%

    Here's the MSDS for Kodak rapid fixer with hardener:

    Ammonium Thiosulphate: 40-45%
    Sodium Acetate: 5-10%
    Boric Acid: 1-5%
    Ammonium Sulphite: 1-5%
    Acetic Acid: 1-5%
    Sodium Bisulfite: 0.1-1%

    Here's the MSDS for KRST:

    Water: 55-60%
    Ammonium Thiosulphate: 25-30%
    Sodium sulphite: 10-15%
    Selenious Acid, disodium salt: 1-5%

    You'll notice additional hardener ingredients in the Kodak rapid fixer that may be contributing to pH differences vs the Arista fixer. I still wouldn't use the Kodak fix at 1:7 though, prefer 1:4.
    Last edited by clayne; 01-25-2014 at 03:06 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  3. #13

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    It is very difficult to wash a FB print properly after over-long fixation. Once the fixer gets "stuck" deep within the paper fibres, it is almost impossible to get rid of it. With 2-bath fixation and a good basic (or neutral) modern rapid fixer, 1+1 minutes (with constant agitation) is already plenty and on the safe side. Such prints are easily washed in 15 minutes.
    Unfortunately, "longer fix = better fix" is a very persistent darkroom myth. And washing prints overnight is - sorry - ridiculous.

    G.

  4. #14
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    To the question about going straight from fixer to standing tray... yes, although it's fresh water, and some agitation, generally the prints are allowed to sit there until I switch to wash configuration. I occasionally pour another quart of water in the tray.

  5. #15
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    clayne, What fixer do you use? It might be a difference that matters.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    clayne, What fixer do you use? It might be a difference that matters.
    Bill, updated my previous post with the details. I use Arista Premium odorless fixer at 1:4 ratio for both baths.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  7. #17
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgK View Post
    It is very difficult to wash a FB print properly after over-long fixation. Once the fixer gets "stuck" deep within the paper fibres, it is almost impossible to get rid of it. With 2-bath fixation and a good basic (or neutral) modern rapid fixer, 1+1 minutes (with constant agitation) is already plenty and on the safe side. Such prints are easily washed in 15 minutes.
    Unfortunately, "longer fix = better fix" is a very persistent darkroom myth. And washing prints overnight is - sorry - ridiculous.

    G.
    Overnight soaking is a physical convenience. It allows me to sleep. I don't believe it harms the prints, though if I modify my routine such that I tone in the same darkroom session, I won't have to leave the prints wet overnight.

  8. #18
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    Yeah soaking overnight in a holding bath is unlikely to do anything bad to prints. I usually try to get toning out of the way because it's fast and part of the batch finishing up process, but I know what you mean when you're feeling tired and just want to go to sleep.

    Myself I'm not a big believer in that fiber somehow absorbs inescapable amounts of fixer the longer you fix it. Seems like it would violate basic diffusion theory to me in that if one fixes longer, than wash longer - but I don't think if one fixes lets say 5 minutes a print the print is going to fall apart in 50 years. There's plenty of empirical evidence showing that isn't true.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  9. #19
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Thanks clayne for the update. There's enough difference between the brands to make a possible difference in the outcome.

    I think my best bet to go forward is to add Hypo Clearing Agent into process steps similar to yours, just before toning.

  10. #20
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    Try a fixer without hardener components first. Remember too that hypoclear is basically sodium sulphite, of which KRST already consists of (in addition to ammonium thiosulphate). You can do it without the additional step of HCA and anything that is less steps == less water == less hassle. The only time I use HCA is with brown toner, and that's to put the brakes on the toning.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

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