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  1. #1

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    Ilford films: base side (question for Simon G.)

    I came across a recent article by Howard Bond about the current lineup/availability of Ilford and Kodak films (as of December 2013), in which he says something interesting I had not read before:

    “Ilford’s FP4 Plus and HP5 Plus (I didn’t examine Delta 100) have a welcome feature: the non-emulsion side has a minute texture similar to that found on anti-Newton-ring glass. That prevents Newton rings when a negative contacts the upper glass of a negative carrier...”

    1. Is this correct?
    2. Is it on Delta 100 also?
    3. Is it on all formats?
    4. Is this a recent thing or has it been there as long as the latest generations of these films have been around (eg has Ilford FP4 Plus always had this feature)?

    For reference, the base side of Kodak's TXP sheet film has a slight "tooth" for retouching purposes, so it makes a handy anti-newton ring spacer.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Mustafa Umut Sarac's Avatar
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    I searched your question and learned XP2 and APX 25 have smooth emulsion and even with an anti newton glass , rings happens.

    ps. I read below for Delta 100.

    Chris Waller Hero, May 11, 2004; 04:59 a.m.
    I have an AN upper neg glass and a plain lower one. Thus the AN glass presses against smooth film base, so no problem. But the low glass presses against the emulsion. Now, in the case of TMX the emulsion can be so smooth that Newton's Rings appear. I never get rings with Ilford Delta because that has a matt surfaced emulsion. I compared two sets of Delta 100 negs by reflecting light off them at a shallow angle from a light fitting which has 3 lamps in it. From the negs developed in D23 (solvent, fine grain) a could see three clear reflections. But, from the neg developed in Rodinal, I just got a diffuse reflection - it was not possible to distinguish the three lamps. Comparing the TMX negs in the same way, the difference was much smaller. Both seemed quite shiny, but those devved in Rodinal were just perceptibly less glossy than those devved in D23.
    Last edited by Mustafa Umut Sarac; 06-25-2014 at 02:24 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Can you please ask easier questions ? One Apug members request .

  3. #3
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    The "tooth' on Kodak film interfered with scanning in some cases, and so the "tooth" was adjusted to prevent scanning problems.

    PE

  4. #4

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    It's a good question, Michael and already it looks as if an answer from Simon Galley would ideally cover all Ilford films and all formats.

    While AN glass for any particular enlarger might prevent any problems, it is (a) not always easy to find and (b) can be quite expensive to buy on the likes of e-bay.


    I look forward to Simon's answer

    pentaxuser

  5. #5

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    PE, yes, which is apparently why the TMax films and Acros have shiny emulsion surfaces. It's an intermittent pain in the ass for us analog printers because while it is fairly straight forward to solve newton ring problems on the base side, not as simple on the emulsion side. So, yippee for scanning.

    The Ilford films don't have this issue on the emulsion side. The emulsion surface has the good old matte finish.

    I assume the sheen is a property of the overcoat rather than the emulsion itself.

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    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Plain gelatin is semi gloss. Added methyl methacrylate beads in the overcoat tone it down to the level desired, but if you use too much it looks grainy (when it is not).

    PE

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    Thanks. Interesting info.

  8. #8
    Dr Croubie's Avatar
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    Maybe that's why Ektar is advertised as good for scanning?
    Because after spending $150 on an ANR-top/glass-bottom universal carrier for my LPL6700, the damn stuff still gives me newton-rings.
    It wet-scans nicely on my better-scanning holder, with Lumina fluid and Aztek mylar, if only the colours looked as nice on-screen (and frankly, if I'm going to have to scan it anyway, I've got enough Velvia to last the next decade).
    An awful lot of electrons were terribly inconvenienced in the making of this post.

  9. #9
    cmacd123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Plain gelatin is semi gloss. Added methyl methacrylate beads in the overcoat tone it down to the level desired, but if you use too much it looks grainy (when it is not).

    PE
    is that what makes ORWO Un54 look like it has funny grain?
    Charles MacDonald
    aa508@ncf.ca
    I still live just beyond the fringe in Stittsville

  10. #10

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    Dear Michael R,

    I would love to say that we have discovered a way in which our film products were less prone to AN rings than others...........sadly I cannot, all films are likely to suffer including all HARMAN manufactured films.

    According to our technical service the supercoat* on the 'top' surface' ie non-emulsion side has in its package a 'element' designed to reduce the effect of AN rings, but they could not quantify the reduction as a percentage.

    * A supercoat is present on all ILFORD Films but the 'package' varies from product to product and format to format.

    Again, according to our technical service, various things can conspire to lessen or heighten the occurance of AN rings such as temperature and humidity, they recommend the use of ultra high quality AN glass as the most effective countermeasure.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

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