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  1. #11
    Bosaiya's Avatar
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    Both papers were listed in Tim Rudman's article on alternativephotography (I believe that's right), and I tried pulling both well before the blacks appeared, just all warm creamy tones, but got the same results. So I suspect it's probably the rapid fixer. Even without a single dot of black, putting the print into the fixer caused all of the light tones to completely disappear and the middle tones to go black. Yikes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie
    You have just discovered one of the secrets of lith printing. Now all you have to do is figure out how to compensate.
    My suggestion is to pull the print earlier , when the image emerges and is still super flat, the timing is critical but let the fix do the work and watch what happens.
    I assume you are using a paper that is not noted for its lith characteristics. ie Ilford warmtone.
    If you use Oriental G4 or Macoe RF2 or Sterling Lith , you will be able to pull in the developer when it looks good.
    Hang in there just pull the print sooner and get use to what it looks like in the Dev . This is a bit difficult but if you hang in there and try this a whole new world of lith printing is open to you.
    Absolutely nothing is wrong here with your fix, just a bit of patience and you will get it.

  2. #12
    Bosaiya's Avatar
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    But the fact that I can't get a light- or mid-tone no matter when I pull it is disturbing, isn't it? It just bleaches away in a few seconds. Almost all of the work I do is extreme macro of insects and spiders, and almost all of the details are destroyed by this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie
    By the way , there is nothing, I say nothing wrong with your fix, you have just stumbled like I did on a very cool technique. lets see where you go with it.

  3. #13
    Bosaiya's Avatar
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    Which fixer do you recommend, Ole?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    If is use a sodium thiosulfate-based fix, there is hardly any bleaching at all. That means I can pull the print when it's ready, which makes lith printing a lot less frustrating

  4. #14
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    Bosaiya
    I print lith extensively and rapid fix is what I use.
    What developer are you using and at what ratio??
    As stated before the fix IMO is not the problem. some papers will explode in the fix others will not .
    You must be patient with Ilford warmtone
    I use macoe lith. indicator stop, agfa rapid fix. I just finished a project with 1200 11x14 prints done this way , it works.

  5. #15
    Ole
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    I use "plain acid fix" - 200g sodium thiosulfate hexahydrate, 20g sodium bisulfite, 1 liter water.
    Mind you, I only use this for lith printing - I use some version of "OF-1" (see "Chemistry Recipes") for everything else.
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  6. #16
    Bosaiya's Avatar
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    My experience is obviously quite limited, so I'm very happily open to all suggestions. It just made sense to me that the rapid fixer was accelerating the undesirable bleaching process. But as I mentioned I didn't read anything specifically against using it, though the authors may just have assumed a level of competence above mine (say, that of a rather dim stump).

    I'm also using the Maco lith (gray box, right?). I'm not near my darkroom now so I can't give specifics, but I made it up according to the included printed directions which looked like they came off a website on the first try, then on the second added about 300ml of the exhausted solution for the second set of tests.

    The warmtone was quite slow, as you point out. It slowly came up very nicely, lots of detail and shading with creamy warm-on-white colors. I tried pulling before anything approaching dark appeared, and also after the desired shadows were close to dark. No matter when I pulled it the print turned to black and white within seconds of the fixer. This also happened with the Cachet RC paper recommended in the article.

    I'm absolutely certain it works, and I'm perfectly willing to believe that the curse that witch put on me for cutting her off in line back in '83 is the cause of my current problems. I'm just trying to figure out which one it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie
    Bosaiya
    I print lith extensively and rapid fix is what I use.
    What developer are you using and at what ratio??
    As stated before the fix IMO is not the problem. some papers will explode in the fix others will not .
    You must be patient with Ilford warmtone
    I use macoe lith. indicator stop, agfa rapid fix. I just finished a project with 1200 11x14 prints done this way , it works.

  7. #17
    Bosaiya's Avatar
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    Despite a degree in molecular biology and working in a biotech lab some time ago I have a feeling that mixing my own chemicals will only add more variables to the problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    I use "plain acid fix" - 200g sodium thiosulfate hexahydrate, 20g sodium bisulfite, 1 liter water.
    Mind you, I only use this for lith printing - I use some version of "OF-1" (see "Chemistry Recipes") for everything else.

  8. #18
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    Bosaiya
    Ok I will try to help but you must put in the time.
    Ilford Warmtone, chemicals as you have indicated will definately work.
    Overexpose on the enlarger
    start developing within 2-2 1/2 minutes.( Macoe lith 1 part AB 6-10 parts water 2 parts old chem.)
    You will notice the image is very flat and boring, wait, let the first indications of black appear. ie black hair, eyebrows, shawdows on trees bla bla bla.
    When it is still definately flat and boring with faint blacks , pull the print

    use rapid fix, you will see the contrast explode in front of your eyes
    This paper will never give you the Anton Corbin look but instead an old world yellow green print that is quite beautiful.
    If you are looking for the peachy highlights and dark blacks I would suggest
    oriental g4 or macorf2.

  9. #19
    Bosaiya's Avatar
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    I'm more than happy to put in the time and effort, I just figured after the twenty or so prints turned out identically bad on two different papers that I should probably stop and ask for help. Then I'd try any suggestions that came along and see where that went.

    I've got some Kentmere paper as well to try, I just didn't because I was getting nowhere (well, someplace I didn't want to be) with the other two. The Ilford never achieved any sort of pleasing color at all for me, which was doubly disappointing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie
    Bosaiya
    Ok I will try to help but you must put in the time.
    Ilford Warmtone, chemicals as you have indicated will definately work.
    Overexpose on the enlarger
    start developing within 2-2 1/2 minutes.( Macoe lith 1 part AB 6-10 parts water 2 parts old chem.)
    You will notice the image is very flat and boring, wait, let the first indications of black appear. ie black hair, eyebrows, shawdows on trees bla bla bla.
    When it is still definately flat and boring with faint blacks , pull the print

    use rapid fix, you will see the contrast explode in front of your eyes
    This paper will never give you the Anton Corbin look but instead an old world yellow green print that is quite beautiful.
    If you are looking for the peachy highlights and dark blacks I would suggest
    oriental g4 or macorf2.

  10. #20
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    If you persue the Ilford Warmtone you will find one of the most beautiful lith paper combinations.

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