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  1. #21
    abeku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srs5694
    Is this blue tint unique to the Fomapan 100, or has it been spotted in other speeds?...
    I've been using the fpan 100 and fpan 400 in 120-format and both have a blue tint, but the 135 version lacks this tint, because different film bases are used (as Jennifer pointed out earlier).

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo
    Freestyle's sale of the film under the Arista.EDU Ultra brand, at the price they're getting, is the reason I mentioned my worries about the continued viability of the company. The last two companies that Freestyle (as well as some other retailers) re-packaged film from were Ilford and Forte, and both companies ended up in financial trouble. In both cases the re-sale of their film at very low price points to retailers was indicated as a reason for their financial problems. I appreciate the ability to get the Fomapan so inexpensively, but I do worry that in another year we'll be looking at another film company that's sinking because they sold their product too cheaply.

    Hopefully I'm wrong, and Foma will be able to flourish at the price points that have been set with Freestlye. But you can bet that I'll be stocking up on Fomapan 200...I like the film too much to take the chance with losing it quickly.
    egarding the curliness of the Fomapan film: I've begun weighting the bottom of my 120 rolls as they dry and making sure that they dry slower by keeping the humidity level up a bit in my drying cabinet, and the curl is definately less than when I used to dry it faster and with less weight on the bottom. The pages still need a day or two under a book before they're truly flat, though.
    I question the logic of your business analysis.

    Efke vs Foma: Foma sells to many distributors in the US; Efke sells to 1. Efke and Foma probably have similar manufacturing costs, as both manufacturers are located in Eastern Europe.

    Efke distributes through a single outlet and prices at $3.51 per roll. Arista.edu prices at $1.29 (Foma private label), sells more, produces more, and can keep unit costs lower. APX25 is gone because the number of rolls dropped below a production run. I've heard that Efke and Foma sell for about the same price overseas.apx100 can be purchased for under $2.00 a roll with even higher manufacturing costs . Maybe 1.39 is the price point needed to keep the roll sales at a level that can support a production run.

    Ignoring the rule of economies of scale may slowly drive Efke out of production in the long term. By distributing through only one outlet, Efke reduced roll sales .may drop below the volume for a production run .
    Last edited by richardmellor; 06-20-2005 at 08:52 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by srs5694
    FWIW, Freestyle is selling Fomapan products now under their "Arista.EDU Ultra" house brand. (Note the ".EDU" and "Ultra" designations; those are important.) Prices on this are very low, such as $20 for a 100-foot bulk roll of 35mm ISO 200 or 400 film. (I bought such a roll of ISO 400 recently, but haven't yet shot much of it.) I can't promise that the emulsions are identical to what J&C sells, though. I don't know about the individually-packaged rolls, but the bulk 35mm roll I've got has no edge markings -- not even frame numbers.

    However, APX 100 and 400 are selling for about $24.00/100 ft. To me it's worth it to go the $4.00 for something better.

  4. #24
    titrisol's Avatar
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    Juts in time!
    thanks to PETERS I got 4 rolls of this stuff, I'll finish the first one tonight and report later.
    Mama took my APX away.....

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardmellor
    I question the logic of your business analysis.
    Well, since I didn't do anything remotely resembling a business analysis, I have to wonder what you're talking about. All I said was that the last two companies that sold their film cheap through Freestyle ended up in financial trouble, and I hope the same doesn't happend to Foma. In both cases, selling the film cheap was pointed out as a primary reason the companies got into financial trouble...undercutting themselves, as it were. This isn't an analysis...it's just simple history.

    Quote Originally Posted by richardmellor
    Efke vs Foma: Foma sells to many distributors in the US; Efke sells to 1. Efke and Foma probably have similar manufacturing costs, as both manufacturers are located in Eastern Europe.

    Efke distributes through a single outlet and prices at $3.51 per roll. Arista.edu prices at $1.29 (Foma private label), sells more, produces more, and can keep unit costs lower. APX25 is gone because the number of rolls dropped below a production run. I've heard that Efke and Foma sell for about the same price overseas.apx100 can be purchased for under $2.00 a roll with even higher manufacturing costs . Maybe 1.39 is the price point needed to keep the roll sales at a level that can support a production run.

    Ignoring the rule of economies of scale may slowly drive Efke out of production in the long term. By distributing through only one outlet, Efke reduced roll sales .may drop below the volume for a production run .
    In order to support your hypothesis, you'll have to come up with proof that Efke is not selling at a high enough rate to keep production up and running. If they are in trouble, it's news to me. To the best of my knowledge Efke is in fine shape. Perhaps John from J&C can give us the scoop on Efke's health. I will say, though, that I shoot a lot of Efke 100 and I definately think it's worth the price. You may not like the fact that J and C got exclusive distribution rights for the film in the US, but before they stepped in you had to order this stuff from overseas and pay high shipping costs. What it sells for in Europe is unimportant to me...what's important to me is how much it costs me to get it to my door. That used to include high shipping costs; now it doesn't. Do I wish it was cheaper? Well, hell, of course I do. But I'm willing to pay the price that's been set, because it's worth it to me.

    Your thoughts about $1.39 being the price point that's needed to keep production running (something that's obviously untrue as almost every film in the world sells for more than that, and one of the two examples that was selling at that price last year ended up driving the company to the brink of bankruptcy) seem wishful at best. Search APUG for John's comments on the quality problems with J&C Pro 100 - he basically says that if you want it better you'll have to pay more. Forte sold for that price and almost went bust. Ilford got in trouble selling cheap (not even $1.39 cheap, but cheap).

    Now, someone at Foma obviously believes that they can provide film for this price and make a profit. That's fine. Time will tell whether they're right or wrong. I truly do hope that they're right...but I have my doubts. Given that this is my opinion, and not the result of any formal analysis, you can tell me I'm wrong all you want but you won't change my mind without proof. Proof will come only with time. If Fomapan is still being sold under the Arista.EDU Ultra brand at this price in two years, then Foma was right. If the film quality goes down, or the price goes up faster than inflation, or Foma goes bust, the Foma was wrong. In the meantime, I'll buy all of the film I can at this price...it's great film and it's a bargain. I certainly don't mind a bargain.
    Film is cheap. Opportunities are priceless.

  6. #26
    titrisol's Avatar
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    Anyone developed Fomapan creative 200 in Rodinal or DDX?
    Any reccomendations?
    Mama took my APX away.....

  7. #27

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    "I question the logic of your business analysis.

    Efke vs Foma: Foma sells to many distributors in the US; Efke sells to 1. "

    Not exactly true. Foma signed an exclusive deal with Freestyle for the USA. Foma will not sell to any other US retailers, they will refer you to Freestyle. We carry Foma products because we import them from our German partner and do not buy direct from Foma. I assume you also feel the same way about Freestyles exclusive deal with Kentmere too?

    "Efke and Foma probably have similar manufacturing costs, as both manufacturers are located in Eastern Europe."

    As the Czech republic is now in the European Union and Foma has to abide with all their laws their costs are increasing. In addition their coating facilities are less advanced than some of the other Eastern manufacturers.

    "Efke distributes through a single outlet and prices at $3.51 per roll."

    Efke 35mm KB100 sells for $3.39. The 120 for $3.09. Where does $3.51 come from? To compare apples to apples Freestyle sells Foma branded Foma 100 for $3.99 per roll and the Foma 100 120 for $3.49 per roll.

    "Arista.edu prices at $1.29 (Foma private label), sells more, produces more, and can keep unit costs lower."

    The production costs do not get lower with large production in these old factories. Working 24/7 to produce a large order results in increased costs.

    "APX25 is gone because the number of rolls dropped below a production run."

    APX 25 is gone because the company decided it was not worth it to produce the film. Pure business decision. If they wanted to they could have produced this film and cold stored it for years in perfect condition.

    "I've heard that Efke and Foma sell for about the same price overseas"

    Actually Foma has been selling their films at a low ball price even in Europe. Following the Agfa model of selling film.

    "apx100 can be purchased for under $2.00 a roll with even higher manufacturing costs."

    Foma and Agfa's manufacturing costs are probably about the same. It's the need to generate cash fast that drives their pricing. As has already been pointed out this is the same logic Ilford and Forte used which in the end made their situation worse.

    "Maybe 1.39 is the price point needed to keep the roll sales at a level that can support a production run."

    At $1.39 a roll nobody is making a whole lot of money if any. Companies price things to levels for various reasons. Sometimes making money now is not the overriding factor. The amusing thing is that the more of this film is sold at $1.29 the worse Foma's position will likely get.

    "Ignoring the rule of economies of scale may slowly drive Efke out of production in the long term."

    Efke is geared to produce in small quantities on small production lines. Economies of scale only work in a world that has the capacity to consume your scaled up volumes. Last time I looked B&W film and paper are not being consumed in the huge quantities anymore that justify large factories producing tens of thousands of square meters per run.


    "By distributing through only one outlet, Efke reduced roll sales may drop below the volume for a production run"

    The size of an Efke production run is much smaller than the size of a Foma run. Both are smaller than the size of an Agfa or Kodak run. You can't use the production size of factory A to judge the efficiencies of factory B. Also as stated at the top Both companies have a single outlet distributing them in the USA.
    www.jandcphoto.com

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by titrisol
    Anyone developed Fomapan creative 200 in Rodinal or DDX?
    Any reccomendations?
    Rodinal 1:50 for 8 minuites
    www.jandcphoto.com

  9. #29
    titrisol's Avatar
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    Thanks JON!
    Quote Originally Posted by jandc
    Rodinal 1:50 for 8 minuites
    Mama took my APX away.....

  10. #30

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    aristia.edu ultra /fomapan100

    I thought this picture might be of interest to members .
    this is the same film sold as aristia.edu.ultra by freestyle [fomapan 100}
    it sells for 1.29 a roll


    .http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2903979

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