APX100: which developer for the finest grain?

[Maine-iac]

I think Patrick Gainer is the best person to ask about how does that work.

From his writings/teachings/messages I have done the following:
- Ascorbic acid or erythorbic acid can be bought in powdered from from a health store, trader joe's or now foods online. Sodium ascorbate would be best but I have iso-ascrobic acid now.
- I mix 1/2 tsp of ascorbic acid per 300 ml of water, then neutralize the acid by adding baking soda slowly until the fizzing subsides and then add the Rodinal
- Development times for 1+100+C are the same as 1+50 [without the C]

Read the article in unblinkingeye about Rodinal, at the end there is a note explaining how this works

As long as you're going to be mixing your own developer, why bother with Rodinal at all? Just use a straight Vitamin C/Phenidone/carbonate developer which will give you great tones and very fine grain with APX.

You might try this combo:
4g Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C powder from health food store)
6g sodium carbonate
1 g Phenidone (4ml 1% Phenidone solution mixed in 90% alcohol)
1 liter water

Try a starting time of approximately 7:30. You can tweak it from there.

Larry

[gainer]

All these comments are true, I'm sure. As long as you have Rodinal on your shelf, you may as well try adding the ascorbate. I found that the character of Rodinal is still there, but with finer grain and somewhat higher film speed.

If you get Vitamin C from druggist or heath food store, be sure it is not dehydroascorbic acid or ester C. Dehydroascorbic acid is converted to ascorbic acid by our bodies, but not by our films. Ester C is usually a calcium ascorbate or something similar that is not very soluble in water. Oil doesn't work very well as a solvent for developers. If you get ascorbic acid or its mirror image erythorbic acid, be sure to neutralize it as previously mentioned with sodium bicarbonate or sodium hydroxide or sodium carbonate. You could also use the potassium equivalents. Without this neutralization, the pH becomes too low for development. The bicarbonate you buy at the grocery store is quite pure, and if you are squeamish you can weigh it and the ascorbic acid to get equimolar amounts. The ratio will be 40 parts of NaHCO3 to 176 parts of ascorbic or erythorbic acid.

[Rolleijoe]

I suppose the title says it all. I've been developing APX100 135 in Rodinal and I love the results. It is a bit grainy for a 100 speed film, so I was wondering what you guys and gals use for a developer with APX100 to get super fine grain.

Thanks in advance,
Ara

For the finest grain with all things APX, for 11 yrs I've been using Agfa Studional. (In EU it's marketed as "Rodinal Special"). Especially made by Agfa for the finest grains from their films. Plus the tonality is fantastic. Dilute as per the bottle (1:15) and just wait for the grain to disappear!

Rolleijoe

[Tom Hoskinson]

According to the New Zealand (March 2003) MSDS for Agfa Rodinal Special, the ingredients are:

Potassium sulfite
Triethanolamine
Hydroquinone
Phenidone
Potassium Bromide
EDTA-alkali salt
Water

Working solution pH is approximately 9.3

I expect that Ilford PQ Universal Developer at the appropriate dilution would produce very similar results - although I would expect its pH to be a bit higher (carbonate versus triethanolamine).

[Gerald Koch]

The cheapest source for sodium ascorbate (as sodium erythorbate) is www.suttonsbayspices.com/Sausage_Supplies.html. They sell it for $6.33 for 16 ounces. Sodium erythorbate or sodium isoascorbate is photochemically equivalent to sodium ascorbate. The people at Suttons Bay are very nice to deal with and very prompt in shipping.

[Gerald Koch]

FWIW, the following substitute formula for Rodinal Special is given by Laurent Wirmer.

Distilled water (50°C) ................. 500 ml
Potassium sulfite (anhy) .............. 225 g
Hydroquinone ............................ 40.0 g
Phenidone ................................ 5.0 g
Triethanolamine ......................... 400 ml
Potassium bromide ...................... 15.0 g
EDTA, Na2 ................................ 25.0 g
Distilled water to make ................ 1.0 l

[Helen B]

Another easy modification of Rodinal is to add about 60 g of sodium sulphite per litre of 1+100 (about one 35 mm film canister full per half-litre, I think). It's been mentioned on APUG [url=http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-5883.html]here[/i] and elsewhere. I tried it after reading the BJP article, and found that it does produce finer grain, but I wasn't impressed otherwise and prefer APX100 in either W2D2+ or Perceptol 1+3, both of which have already been mentioned. For the APX100 I tried in Rodinal + sulphite I set my meter to EI 80, and developed for 11½ mins at 24°C.

Best,
Helen

[Zathras]

Another easy modification of Rodinal is to add about 60 g of sodium sulphite per litre of 1+100 ...(BIG SNIP)... I tried it after reading the BJP article, and found that it does produce finer grain, but I wasn't impressed otherwise and prefer APX100 in either W2D2+ or Perceptol 1+3, both of which have already been mentioned. (SNIP)
Best,
Helen

Helen,

What dev times and temps were you using with Perceptol 1+3? Also, what speed are you shooting the APX100 at?

Thanks,

Mike Sullivan

[Tom Hoskinson]

FWIW, the following substitute formula for Rodinal Special is given by Laurent Wirmer.

Distilled water (50°C) ................. 500 ml
Potassium sulfite (anhy) .............. 225 g
Hydroquinone ............................ 40.0 g
Phenidone ................................ 5.0 g
Triethanolamine ......................... 400 ml
Potassium bromide ...................... 15.0 g
EDTA, Na2 ................................ 25.0 g
Distilled water to make ................ 1.0 l

If you eliminated the Potassium sulfite and the water, then brought the total solution volume up to 500ml with triethanolamine; it would probably last forever as a stock concentrate.

Of course, you would need to add some sullfite to the working developer - unless you wanted tanned and stained film.