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  1. #11
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maine-iac
    I'm not disputing your claims because I don't know enough about cosmic radiation and such. However, have you ever had any film or paper (other than that stored in a humid, hot basement, go bad from cosmic radiation?
    Yes, and you probably have too with your 10-year-old color film, but you don't realize it. High speed films will generally show some base fog even if they've been cold stored due to cosmic radiation, and medium and low speed films to a lesser degree in the same time period, but leave them long enough, and they'll show high base fog for the same reason. I'll send you a roll of 1970s Double-X 35mm cine stock, if you would like to see--I finally tossed 300 feet of it from the freezer a few days ago, but I have some loaded 35mm cartridges still.

    Very slow materials, on the other hand, hold up much better over time, which is why you sometimes hear of people printing on Azo that is more than 40 years old (probably not cold stored the whole time) with no sign of fog.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  2. #12
    Louis Mutch's Avatar
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    Film will never go away, people are still stumbling for thier newpapers in the morning. If the same logic that is used in the film vs. digital debate would be used; the newspaper would have been eliminated by the radio, TV, or the internet.
    Photography start in our minds.

  3. #13
    dr bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbroadbridge
    I'd be stocking up on digital cameras to be honest. They have a much shorter shelf life than any film/developer combination out there at the moment.

    Save those 3MP P&S cameras, as you won't be able to buy them in 2 years time.


    Graham.
    LOL!!!
    I love the smell of fixer in the morning. It smells like...creativity!
    Truly, dr bob.

  4. #14
    eclarke's Avatar
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    "I think that many film enthusiasts are overdoing their lamentations over the demise of film, etc."

    Remember the demise of the pinball machine when arcade video games came around? They were hauling pinball machines to the dump. A few years later they were hot as a pistol. Americans always folow a fad and then go retro..nothing goes away for good!! With gas at $2.60, horses may make a big comeback!! Film will be around for awhile and maybe if all the big players and their prejudices go away, somebody will make an innovative new advancement in film...EC

  5. #15
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    I think that I should clarify my previous comment. Where I put 'cosmic radiation', I should have put 'ambient radiation'. This is the low energy radiation that we see naturally on the earth due to radon in basements for example, or just solar radiation reaching the earth. The lower energy cosmic radiation is also there, due to collision with atoms of the atmosphere which reduce energy to the level stoppable by practical levels of lead.

    Yes, lead will work. The more the better.

    Yes, I have seen hydroquinone go bad on the shelf. It gradually forms quinhydrone, the green smelly component of green ink. If it does not form that, it just forms a black gooey sludge at the bottom of the bottle. This is usually due to moisture and air getting to it.

    Almost all organic compounds gradually decompose and go bad. It might be fair to say that all organic compounds gradually decompose and go bad given enough time and the right environment.

    Many inorganic compounds also spoil. Sulfites go to sulfates, hypo absorbs water and oxidizes, sodium iodide yields iodine, etc. etc.

    In my experience, the practical limit of darkroom chemicals under optimum storage conditions is around 5 - 10 years. For film, frozen, I have eked out 20 - 30 years with usable but not optimum results. And, this varies from product to product, film, paper, and chemistry. In the paper arena, FB papers kept much less well than RC papers of the same exact brand and grade.

    PE

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenR
    I think that many film enthusiasts are overdoing their lamentations over the demise of film, etc. Sure, some of the big guys will exit the picture, but the small fry will be quite happy to expand and take their market share. We live in a small linked world. If someone sees a market, the product can be ordered via the internet and shipped almost anywhere on the planet, overnight. Yes, you may not be able to get your favorite film or paper, but a reasonable equivalent will be available.
    Unfortunately, the price may rise as well. A limited number of manufacturers supplying a limited market may be able to charge whatever they want, for a niche product without popular appeal.
    Therefore, I am not stocking up on things. Rather, I am prepared to be flexible, to buy from whoever seems to be supplying the products that I need.
    That is my biggest concern. I am more afraid of prices getting higher, and too high for me. Me to don't think film, paper, chemicals will gone completely. And if prices get too high, and having in mind custom duties, TAX, and bank expencies, for me will be cheaper to buy big quantity at once than small quantities over and over when products become more expencive. Only, if situation in my country change so custom duties, TAX and bank expencies get lower, than maybe I could survive higher prices of products. Or I win lottery...

    And of course, if my favorite products are gone, I will use what is there, so that also is not big issue...

  7. #17

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    Buy metol and put 10 gm in each of 10 sandwich bags. seal each bag and put it back in the bottle it came in seal the bottle.

    Hydroquinone I`m using is 40 years old stored in the dark in a sealed jar. No difference in D76 I made with it and package mix.

    Borax is a laundry product. Lasts forever. Sodium sulfite is from the chemistry srore.com. Very cheap- long shelf life.

    Paper developer is similar mix.

    I`ve been using frozen film for decades. Cosmic rays are a factor for high speed film only.

    Paper could be frozen in the past, but still can be just for not as long at least for Ilford. I have been told by Ilford their paper contains small amounts of developer and freezing will only prolong life a short time. Not large amounts like developer incorporated paper has in it so it is not called a developer incorporated paper. I don`t know about none Ilford paper, but that is the reason the current papers have such short shelf life compared to before. Two years seems to be about it and you get fog.

    I just inherited boxes of paper stored in a basement, mostly Medalist, and it prints just fine. It was left over from a wedding business and the expiration date was 1966.
    The problem is the paper base turned yellow. I think freezing would have helped this.

    I would just keep supporting Ilford as they seem to be the most stable. Kodak wants out of analog business so says their CEO. So that is why I will no longer buy any Kodak product. I wish they would go away as soon as possible giving the business to someone else who will maintain it.

    Maybe I`ll start testing papers to see which have the longest shelf life.

  8. #18
    Donald Qualls's Avatar
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    And if all else fails -- I don't expect instant coffee to disappear any time soon; the Folger's Cofee Crystals that go into Caffenol have been essentially unchanged for more than thirty years and still sell well (presumably to folks who don't want to drink actual coffee, but hey, it makes fine developer). With coffee crystals, ascorbic acid powder (at worst, from a health food store, currently at about $14/lb), and washing soda (which, come to it, I can make from baking soda by simple heating), I can make at least three useful developers, one a staining type and one a speed-gaining low contrast developer suitable for document films like Copex Rapid.

    Maybe I`ll start testing papers to see which have the longest shelf life.
    Ron, will you live long enough to get meaningful results?
    Photography has always fascinated me -- as a child, simply for the magic of capturing an image onto glossy paper with a little box, but as an adult because of the unique juxtaposition of science and art -- the physics of optics, the mechanics of the camera, the chemistry of film and developer, alongside the art in seeing, composing, exposing, processing and printing.

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