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  1. #11

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    Not putting reels in a full tank. I understand that can be done, but it's quite impractical, IMO, as is has to be done in total darkness. I think most people using the Paterson system or similar would pour the dev. into the tank, as this is what the manufacturers recommend?

    Do you mean this is a problem specifically with Rodinal or generally?

    *h

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell
    Pouring the developer into a Paterson tank, though, seems to be more likely a source of trouble.

    .
    Isn't that the idea of a peterson tank? Three rolls might give some trouble if you fill the tank just enough to soak all three of them. The thinner the developer (like 1:100) the more liquid you should pour into the thank.

    cheers,
    Quinten

  3. #13

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    These artifacts don't look at all like air bells, but could be small aread that don't get enough agitation at the start of development. Most problems I've had that look something like this are usually the result of insufficient initial agitation. Four inversions in 20 seconds seems awfully slow to me. I'm getting 1/sec. with a 1L SS tanks and agitate for 10 seconds each minute or 3 sec. each 30 sec. depending on the developer.

    A real possibility is that your tank is too full. You need a little bit of air space above the developer to insure that it all gets mixed up during agitation. Preventing the reels from slipping up and down on the center column is easy. Simply slip a rubber band around the center core above the top reel.

  4. #14

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    I have the same problem with the large Paterson tank when using Tri-X 120 film in 1+1 XTOL, especially when i am not very carefull in my agitation. My guess would be that you use to much agitation, in stead of not enough. In the large Paterson tank there's a lot of air space on top, even with 1.6 L chemicals in it. After inversion I can always hear a 'blob'-sound after a couple of seconds when all the air is getting back to the top of the tank. Also: 32 ml rodinal is about 33% more then you need for 3 120 films according to the rodinal data sheet, so that can't be the problem either. When I inverse this large tank slowly only half way (untill it's about horizontal and then back to it's normal vertical position again) and use this agitation every ten seconds for the first minute and one every minute for the remaining time, the problem seems to be solved.

  5. #15
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Get rid of possible air bubbles

    I have not had the specific problems. The patterns are very symmetrical. I wonder if you have air bubbles trapped between the film layers. I have had one problem where my agitation with the developer in the tank was much more careful than when the fixer is in there, causing the film to 'stick' to the reel, not allowing developer to contact the film emulsion. Then when putting water in for stop bath, I have agitated vigorously enough for the film to let go of the reel. After that the film is fixed, and there are spots on the edge of the film that are undeveloped, and totally clear.
    This I cured by always using a 3min presoak in water with fairly vigorous agitation, but more importantly, give the tank 5-10 fairly hard raps with your palm on the bottom, so that any air bubbles in between film layers float to the top. It has really improved my consistency and quality from batch to batch. It is very strange that it's only along one side of the film, however. Would that edge have been up or down in the tank? If it's up, it's a definite possibility that air bubbles got caught there while floating to the surface.
    Even when pouring the developer and fixer into the tank, I rap the tank in the bottom. It's worth a try!

    A test of the film would be to develop a film strip in a tray. If I had to guess it has to do with how the film is developed, since it doesn't matter which film or camera you use.

    Good luck, lycka till,

    - Thom

  6. #16
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timeUnit
    Not putting reels in a full tank. I understand that can be done, but it's quite impractical, IMO, as is has to be done in total darkness. I think most people using the Paterson system or similar would pour the dev. into the tank, as this is what the manufacturers recommend?

    Do you mean this is a problem specifically with Rodinal or generally?

    *h
    I mean RODINAL is probably the easiest and most troublefree developer ever made. I mean that if you are having problems, it could very well be linked to Paterson reels or tanks.

    It has ALWAYS been considered 'good practice' to fill the tank with developer before putting in the the reels. ALWAYS. I'm concerned the Paterson reels restrict solution flow, as opposed to steel. But I have no idea what is the source of your trouble. If anything might work, I'd suggest loading the reels into a tank full of developer, shaking the reels gently as you lower them into solution, then rap the base of the tank soundly after you've secured the lid and turned on the lights.

    The only problem as I see it is that you should NOT be having consistent defects on your negatives, and you should be having the same trouble with all developers.

    good luck.
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  7. #17

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    fschifano,

    Yes it is quite slow. The Paterson tanks have a very big "lump" on top that fits the funnel/light trap. There is a lot of air in that. If you invert the tank, it takes around 2 seconds for the air to move from the top to the bottom, and about 3 sec back, on the big tanks that is. So if you do the full inversion, and want all of the developer to move around that's how slow it is. Huub S has a very nice suggestion that I will try. It might be so that the full inversion introduces lots of air that gets stuck around the reels and is hard to remove by whacking the tank.

    In Sweden Paterson is dominant on the market, and with "analog" photo sales plummeting, there's not so much to choose from. Jobo is hard to find, as is steel spirals for the Paterson system. So my options are a bit limited.

    I do feel, after extensive searching, that agitation is key, especially with big Paterson tanks.

    df cardwell,
    the reels have worked good before, it's only the tank that is new. Therefore I'm reluctant to deem the reels as defective. Also, as stated above, my options are limited. The Paterson system is designed to have the deveopler poured into the tank. It's by far the most popular tank in Sweden, and very common around Europe as I understand. Although your suggestion is a good one, it seems to me a last resort. I really hope the engineers at Paterson haven't built a system that is useless when following their own instructions.

    I will contact the Paterson distributor in Sweden. They have had good suggestions before.

    Thanks for all you suggestions!
    *h

  8. #18

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    I think it was the agitation! I did two rolls of Pan F + in Rodinal 1+50 @20°C, 11 minutes. Agitation for the first 1,5 minutes and then 10 sec/min, with a technique recommended by a few people here and on photo.net. Alternating "tipping" of the tank from vertical to horisontal to the left and to the right. Between the the tippings I do a fast circular motion to create a whirlwind motion in the liquid. This way I get more agitation in the given amount of time, and probably more random and altogether better.

    Both rolls look absolutely fine in terms of lighter spots or patches, I'm pleased with the results!

    Thanks everyone for your knowledge!

    *henning

  9. #19

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    Super-old thread, I know, but:

    I just wanted to share a similar experience with people. I recently developed a whole whack of 120 400tx. About half with Rodinal 1:50, and the other half with HC110(B). My agitation pattern is the same for both:

    68F, 30s initial, tap tap tap, 4 inversions in 5s, every 30s, tapping at the end of each cycle.

    Without question the negs developed in Rodinal had the same edge markings as TimeUnit's, and many others I've seen posted. Saunders McNew had a thread on this some time ago. The Hc110 negs were just fine.

    Looking back over older negs, those developed in Rodinal consistently showed this same problem. A real shame, but live and learn. I'll probably just stick with HC110, as I've discovered I like the look of it better than Rodinal, edge markings aside.

    It undoubtedly is an agitation issue. Nothing to do with under filling the tank, I'm quite sure. I reckon I'm over agitating (I like contrast). I've always read to treat Rodinal gently; I should have taken heed!

    I would love to know what it is about Rodinal that would cause these problems, however. I wish they made clear developing tanks to see what the agitation patterns looks like (on dead rolls, obviously!). I bet it would be pretty obvious.

    Any thought on this would be appreciated!

  10. #20
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    I know the problem is bubbles or air on the edges of the film because I have seen it many times. You have to dislodge the air from the film somehow. It might be that there is too much air in the water. Some water is far more aerated than other. I am not sure how that happens except with certain types of taps and mixing air in. I would do a presoak and find someway to rap the tank to get the air off the film. Maybe more initial agitation would help.

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