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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu
    I'd need long developing times before doing that; dumping
    A. Thio. concentrate in with the developer.

    On another note, you've I don't know how much freed
    Chlorine, Bromine, and Iodine in your developer. That will
    tax your fixer. A Least chemistry approach requires dumping
    the developer and washing the film prior to fixing.

    I can't say how much difference it will make but for an
    average, say zone 5 developed roll, I'd think an easily
    measurable difference. Dan
    Dan, based on comparative tests, no measurable difference. I am using the fixer as a one shot.
    Tom Hoskinson
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  2. #12
    Baxter Bradford's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, I appreciate the continued interest in this thread. However, the latest contributions are some way away from the title and I suggest that they seem worthy of discussion in a thread of their own right.

    In a Jobo ATL there is no option to add chemistry to that which is already there. At the end of each stage, the tank is emptied by the lift mechanism and the next solution pumped in.

    You are correct Tom, I have checked and the Ilford Rapid Fixer is predominantly Ammonium Thiosulphate, so that would be an easy place to start (KISS), my only concern that a 5 min wash might not be sufficient.

    Many thanks

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter Bradford
    Gentlemen, I appreciate the continued interest in this thread. However, the latest contributions are some way away from the title and I suggest that they seem worthy of discussion in a thread of their own right.

    In a Jobo ATL there is no option to add chemistry to that which is already there. At the end of each stage, the tank is emptied by the lift mechanism and the next solution pumped in.

    You are correct Tom, I have checked and the Ilford Rapid Fixer is predominantly Ammonium Thiosulphate, so that would be an easy place to start (KISS), my only concern that a 5 min wash might not be sufficient.

    Many thanks
    A very prudent concern, Baxter. I recommend running a test negative through the complete process, followed by a residual fixer test.

    If you fail the residual fixer test, it would seem that you have at least 2 "knobs" you can turn:

    1. Adjust the amount of fixer concentrate.
    2. Add one or more "soak and dump" wash steps after the automatic processing sequence.
    Tom Hoskinson
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  4. #14
    Ole
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu
    Were that the case there would be no Iodide test for
    exhausted fixer.

    Solubility products and common ions are terms associated
    with the case in point; a fixers reduced capacity due to the
    presence of ions in common with an element with
    which it forms insoluble compounds.

    All of the halogens of silver are insoluble. Least of all being
    the iodide then the bromide then the chloride. Dan
    The iodide test works by adding a large surplus of iodide to a little fixer, precipitating dissolved silver as silver iodide. That kind of concentrations is never reached in normal processing - and as you said, it's the solubility product that is important here.

    Bromide comcentrations will be higher in spent fixer, but still not enough to precipitate sliver bromide.

    Chloride has an added side-effect: It works as a complexing agent along with thiosulfate and ammonia. While silver chloride is "insoluble" (10x the solubility of AgBr, about 100x AgI), a surplus of chloride can in some cases increase the solubility through forming AgCl6 complexes.
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    That kind of concentrations is never reached in normal processing ...
    We are not in any way near to "normal processing" in
    this discussion. Tom H. at the end of a one-shot development
    added 30ml of A. Thio. concentrate to the developer in the tank.
    One-shot developer and one-shot fix are in the same tank at
    the same time. That's a long, long way from normal.

    About that chloride, what you say of the complex may be true
    BUT, AFAIK, there is little of the chloride of silver in film.

    Essentially my approach to this matter is from a Least
    Chemistry view point while your approach is from the
    conventional more nearly Most Chemistry view point.
    I favor working solutions of low ionic strength.

    Tom's 30ml of A. Thio mixed with the developer is toward a
    Least Chemistry but I think he can see no difference because
    he is really using such a surplus that it masks results.

    Of course the 8ml suggested by Ilford and Kodak won't do.
    Such a little amount must be based on film AND exposure
    averages. There is no massive fixer chart. Neither of the
    two I've mentioned even suggest one-shot fixer. Dan

  6. #16
    Baxter Bradford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu
    We are not in any way near to "normal processing" in
    this discussion.
    I do want a discussion about normal processing on this thread, related to using a Jobo processor with Pyrocat HD and fixer. This method is not the subject of your latest discussions, nor relevant to the thread. As I pointed out in my last post, such information may be worthy of discussion in a thread of its own. Then others with your significant level of chemical expertise can add their opinions.

    My objective is to get the machine producing top quality negatives to save me the effort of having to stand at the kitchen sink agitating a Combi Plan tank.

    Simply for reasons of economy I was asking when starting the thread whether it was possible to fix for at a weaker dilution for the 6 minutes programmed in the machine when the alkaline fix I have been using does this in 3 minutes.

    With thanks to your earlier posts, I now have enough information to be going on with and have said that I will report back once I get started. In the meantime, I need to order the chemicals (today hopefully), shoot some test sheets and have an adventure with using it for some E6.

  7. #17

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    any results to report on highly dilute fixer in a Jobo ATL?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter Bradford View Post

    With thanks to your earlier posts, I now have enough information to be going on with and have said that I will report back once I get started. In the meantime, I need to order the chemicals (today hopefully), shoot some test sheets and have an adventure with using it for some E6.
    Baxter,

    Do you have any updates? I too have an ATL-1000 that I use for B&W film and am still trying to find a good procedure for the fixer issue.

    So far, I try to capture the fix from the drain hose in between steps and add it back to the bottle of mixed working strength fix. I use the manufacture's recommendation for number of rolls per litre as a guide to dispose of the entire bottle before exhaustion. I don't think there is a contamination issue with the drain hose because I use water for the stop step so what little liquid is in the hose before the fixer drain step is pretty much water.

    I had thought about the Jobo separator unit but it seems that it merely separates the dev from the other liquids meaning the stop would be diverted to the same container as the fix making the fix useless for reuse. I would be interested in hearing if anyone has figured out a way of automatically diverting just the fixer drain to its own container.

    It looks like you considered the suggestion of using the fix one shot ie. 30ml of full strength fix in bottle #3. With Jobo's min liquid that would mean adding at least 240 ml of water to bottle #3 making it highly dilute (1+8) but fresh. Did you find this dilution adequately fixed film in Jobo's 6 min fixing cycle? If so, was this by visual inspection or a residual fixer test? What about when 600 ml were required - did you increase to 60ml of stock or just go with the higher dilution?

    Along with getting a proper level of fixing, the only other issue I can think of with the low volume one shot approach is that you end up using 3 times as much fixer compared to the re-use approach. For example, the usual capacity of 1L of working strength 1+4 fix is approx 20 rolls. That averages out to about 10ml of stock per roll.

    If anyone else has tried some thing like the low dilution approach for the ATL Jobo's, could you comment on your experience? I sure would like to find a way of having to run back to the processor to catch the drained fixer in time before losing it down the drain!

    thanks in advance,
    Martin

  8. #18
    Baxter Bradford's Avatar
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    Hi Martin

    Yes, an update seems slightly overdue....

    I ended up discovering that Hypam 1+4 which was then further diluted 1:1 with water gave the right clearing time and suitable economy. I use this as a one shot fixer, given that the volumes of fluid are so low comparitively speaking with other tanks.

    Even now I use a Jobo ATL2300, I kept the same chemistry ideas from the ATL1000, Pyrocat HD, water stop bath and Hypam. So that is how I do my B+W, having not detected a discernible difference from using Alkaline fixers on stain. I like easy!

    HTH

  9. #19

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    Baxter,

    What is your process sequence for using a water stop in the ATL-2300?

    My current sequence is something like:

    5 minute pre-wash, 5 - 10 minute developer (Tetenal Ultrafin), 1 minute wash, 1 minute acid stop bath, 6 minute fix, 5 minute wash

    Tom.

  10. #20
    Baxter Bradford's Avatar
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    Tom

    Sorry the processor is out of commission at the moment. I've just moved house over the summer and awaiting a fairly major plumbing job to get it installed in the garage. Thus I'm unable to interrogate the menu to get these times for you. I was able to remember the fixer query for Martin - but nothing as detailed as yours!

    Hopefully have the info a couple of weeks or so. I've a backlog of film to process and keen to find out how I've fared in the last few months!

    Apologies

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