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  1. #1

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    Agfa Neutol-WA Formula?

    Since it looks as though Agfa black and white products will soon finish, I'm interested in making something as close to Neutol-WA as possible. We all know that an MSDS is not a formula, because the exact amounts need not be shown, and some ingredients might not be shown if they are in small proportions and/or are harmless.

    I have several Neutol-WA MSDS documents from different jurisdictions, and to comply with local laws they show different ranges for the components (some ranges much tighter than others), and in some cases they show a code that seems to indicate some info about the amount.

    What I have come up with using the tightest ranges is (concentrate):

    water 55-60%
    Potassium sulphite 15-20%
    Potassium carbonate 15-20%

    Potassium bromide 0.1-1% (code PA3, meaning it's 3% or more, and NJ4, meaning it's greater than 1% ? So maybe the 0.1-1% is wrong.)

    Hydroquinone 1-5% (no code PA3, meaning it's less than 3%)
    EDTA tetrasodium salt 1-5% (code PA3, meaning it's 3% or more)

    PA3 = Pennsylvania Non-hazardous present at 3% or greater
    NJ4 = New Jersey other = non-hazardous included in 5 predominant ingredients greater than 1%

    One of the codes contradicts the stated quantities. I'm not worried about the bromide, since a bit extra is often added to warm tone developers. Any suggestions for the quantities of hydroquinone and EDTA t.s.s?

    FWIW, the density of the working solutions is given as:
    1+7 1.050 to 1.056
    1+11 1.034 to 1.040

    Does anyone have any further ideas for a formula, in particular the quantities for the ingredients present in small concentrations? Or maybe other ingredients not shown at all?

  2. #2

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    Try GAF/Ansco/Agfa 110 Direct Brown-Black Paper Developer

    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=168

    For warmer tones, double or triple the amount of Potassium Bromide.

    Another excellent Warm Tone paper developer is Ilford ID-78 (a PQ developer):

    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=23
    Tom Hoskinson
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  3. #3

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    Agfa 123 Brown tone developer:

    Water- 750ml
    Sodium sulfite 60g
    Hydroquinone 24g
    Potassium Carbonate 80g
    Potassium Bromide 25g
    Water to make 1` ltr

    This is very similar to Neutol with the use of the sodium sulfite instead of potassium sulfite.
    I don't know what EDTA tetrasodium salt is. I assume that since this is an original Agfa formula it is probably Neutol with differences having to do with requirements for long term packaging of a liquid concentrate.

    This is from Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook. He states it works well with chlorobromide papers.

    I don't remeber the exact chemistry but I do know that a worm tone developer needs to use exclusively hydroquinone and the amount of bromide determines the warmth of tone up to the point the level of bromide included induces fogging.

    I have made this and if I recall it worked really well with (sigh) Agfa paper. I quit making it becuase of availability of products such as Zonal Pro and Neutol. Looks like its time to get out the scale again.
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn
    Agfa 123 Brown tone developer:

    Water- 750ml
    Sodium sulfite 60g
    Hydroquinone 24g
    Potassium Carbonate 80g
    Potassium Bromide 25g
    Water to make 1` ltr

    This is very similar to Neutol with the use of the sodium sulfite instead of potassium sulfite.
    I don't know what EDTA tetrasodium salt is.
    EDTA tetrasodium salt is a calcium, etc. sequestrant/water softener - not needed with most mixing water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn
    I assume that since this is an original Agfa formula it is probably Neutol with differences having to do with requirements for long term packaging of a liquid concentrate.

    This is from Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook. He states it works well with chlorobromide papers.

    I don't remeber the exact chemistry but I do know that a worm tone developer needs to use exclusively hydroquinone...
    This is not correct, Ilford ID-78 is an excellent warm tone developer and it contains both Phenidone and Hydroquinone.

    There are other excellent warm tone developers that use Catechol instead of Hydroquinone. Edwal 120 is an example.

    Another excellent warm tone print developer is Suzuki's DS-15. D-15 is a Metol/Ascorbic Acid Print developer. See:

    http://silvergrain.org/Photo-Tech/pr...recommend.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Chinn
    ...and the amount of bromide determines the warmth of tone up to the point the level of bromide included induces fogging.

    I have made this and if I recall it worked really well with (sigh) Agfa paper. I quit making it becuase of availability of products such as Zonal Pro and Neutol. Looks like its time to get out the scale again.
    Tom Hoskinson
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    Everything is analog - even digital :D

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_s
    Since it looks as though Agfa black and white products will soon finish, I'm interested in making something as close to Neutol-WA as possible. We all know that an MSDS is not a formula, because the exact amounts need not be shown, and some ingredients might not be shown if they are in small proportions and/or are harmless.

    I have several Neutol-WA MSDS documents from different jurisdictions, and to comply with local laws they show different ranges for the components (some ranges much tighter than others), and in some cases they show a code that seems to indicate some info about the amount.

    What I have come up with using the tightest ranges is (concentrate):

    water 55-60%
    Potassium sulphite 15-20%
    Potassium carbonate 15-20%

    Potassium bromide 0.1-1% (code PA3, meaning it's 3% or more, and NJ4, meaning it's greater than 1% ? So maybe the 0.1-1% is wrong.)

    Hydroquinone 1-5% (no code PA3, meaning it's less than 3%)
    EDTA tetrasodium salt 1-5% (code PA3, meaning it's 3% or more)

    PA3 = Pennsylvania Non-hazardous present at 3% or greater
    NJ4 = New Jersey other = non-hazardous included in 5 predominant ingredients greater than 1%

    One of the codes contradicts the stated quantities. I'm not worried about the bromide, since a bit extra is often added to warm tone developers. Any suggestions for the quantities of hydroquinone and EDTA t.s.s?

    FWIW, the density of the working solutions is given as:
    1+7 1.050 to 1.056
    1+11 1.034 to 1.040

    Does anyone have any further ideas for a formula, in particular the quantities for the ingredients present in small concentrations? Or maybe other ingredients not shown at all?
    John, the Agfa Neutol WA MSDS information you list (above) is not consistant with the 2004 MSDS:

    http://www.darkroomshop.com.au/new/d...oncentrate.pdf

    Note that the 2004 MSDS lists the ingredients for a Phenidone/Hydroquinone developer. (The 1998 MSDS listed ingredients for a Hydroquinone developer).

    Thus, the 2004 version of Agfa Neutol WA (liquid) appears to be similar to Ilford ID-78.

    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=23
    Tom Hoskinson
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    Everything is analog - even digital :D

  6. #6

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    Yup, I was wrong. looking back through the Darkroom Cookbook there are a couple of other warm tone developers which use phenidone and one that uses catechol.
    "Fundamentally I think we need to rediscover a non-ironic world"
    Robert Adams

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoskinson
    John, the Agfa Neutol WA MSDS information you list (above) is not consistant with the 2004 MSDS:

    http://www.darkroomshop.com.au/new/d...oncentrate.pdf

    Note that the 2004 MSDS lists the ingredients for a Phenidone/Hydroquinone developer. (The 1998 MSDS listed ingredients for a Hydroquinone developer).

    Thus, the 2004 version of Agfa Neutol WA (liquid) appears to be similar to Ilford ID-78.

    http://www.apug.org/forums/article.php?a=23
    OOPS!
    Yes, I had that MSDS too. I missed it when I collated the above info. Phenidone is listed as 0-1%

    I am interested in Neutol-WA particularly as it has such a long life in a Nova processor. With topping up as necessary using fibre paper (quite a bit of topping up, actually), it lasts almost for ever.

    The metol/ascorbic acid warm tone developer of Ryuji Suzuki seems not be recommended for a Nova processor, according to Ryuji's instructions. I assumed that was because of a shorter life. He does recommend the phenidone/ascorbic cold tone developer for Nova use.

    The hydroquinone-only developers of Agfa are also discussed by Ryuji, and they don't appeal to me since they require lots more exposure and longer dev time.

  8. #8

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    John, Ian Grant says that ID-78 has a long dish life, so I would expect that it would work well in a Nova. PM Ian and ask him.
    Tom Hoskinson
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    Everything is analog - even digital :D

  9. #9

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    Did anyone measure pH of Neutol-WA? With MSDS info, it's not hard to make a developer that works similar to it given the actual pH. Also very useful are measured values of reduction potential (platinum electrode potential re Ag/AgCl reference), and pBr.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_s
    I am interested in Neutol-WA particularly as it has such a long life in a Nova processor. With topping up as necessary using fibre paper (quite a bit of topping up, actually), it lasts almost for ever.
    I would think DS-14 is perfect for that. DS-14 would give slightly warmer side of black with AGFA papers, Fortezo, etc. and neutral black with cold tone papers.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_s
    The metol/ascorbic acid warm tone developer of Ryuji Suzuki seems not be recommended for a Nova processor, according to Ryuji's instructions. I assumed that was because of a shorter life. He does recommend the phenidone/ascorbic cold tone developer for Nova use.
    One reason I don't recommend DS-15 for a Nova standby developer is because the processing result is not as stable as with DS-14, which can go for months by replenishing. But if you are willing to replace the bath more often, there's nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_s
    The hydroquinone-only developers of Agfa are also discussed by Ryuji, and they don't appeal to me since they require lots more exposure and longer dev time.
    If you want to get really warm orange brown tone without toning, I see no other way to do. But then if you develop prints in those warmtone developers, you are more likely to lose shadow density when toning the print in polysulfide toners, so you are practically limiting the toning options. I personally prefer to develop in DS-14 and tone, rather than use warm tone developer.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji
    ..... I personally prefer to develop in DS-14 and tone, rather than use warm tone developer.
    Thanks for your comments, Ryuji. Now that I think about it, I suspect that with the likely demise of Agfa MCC paper which responds nicely to Neutol-WA, your suggestion is a good one.

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