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  1. #21
    Denis P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnyroller
    I bought some Efke 25 and 100 in 120 roll film and have been using it over the past couple of months. It seems everyone else loves this film and I have seen beautiful examples of what others have done with. I do not seem to be having the same the experience. Even in the 25 I have very visible grain in 8 x 8 enlargements. With the 25 I rated it at 25. I developed it in Rodinal 1:100 for 18 minutes at 21 degrees C.
    The dev. temperature should be 20 deg. C.

    Maga dev. chart states about 4.5 minutes for Efke 25 at dilution of 1+50, so 1+100 would be closer to 9 minutes, instead of 18, which you used - PLUS you used 21 deg. C., which means your dev. time should have been even shorter than that (by at least 20%).

    You have overdeveloped the film by waaaay too much - particularly if it's intended for scanning, where you usually aim for "thinner" negative. I wonder how you can see ANYTHING on/through those negs

    A few days ago I developed some Efke R25 (shot at EI 25) in Rodinal 1+60 at 20 deg. C for 5 minutes - the results were quite nice.

    I don't know where you got those times for Efke R25 and Rodinal, but those are quite excessive - those times might work OK for Efke R100 (shot at EI 100), but should be MUCH shorter for Efke R25, shot at EI 25.

    As I said, try Efke R25 with Rodinal 1+100 for about 9-11 minutes (max!) and at 20 deg. C. Then let us know the results.

    As a general guideline, I use Efke films with Rodinal 1+50, and the (general) times are:

    R25 = 4.5 - 5 min

    R50 = 7 - 8 min

    R100 = 9.5 - 10 min

    All films shot at nominal EI (i.e 25, 50 and 100), times are for Rodinal 1+50.

    For thinner negatives (for scanning), use the shorter of the two times listed, i.e. for Efke R25 use 4.5 minutes, insted the longer listed time of 5 minutes.
    Naturally, dev. time depends also on the lighting of the shots - for contrasty scenes (sunny) develop less, and for low contrast scenes (dull, overcast light), develop a bit more.

    DISCLAIMER: the above works for me, and the way I work, in my darkroom, with my chemicals, my thermometer, the water I use, etc...
    YMMV (your mileage may vary), as they say

    Regards,

    Denis

  2. #22
    Ole
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    I have recently developed some EFKE films in Rodinal, and ... Sorry Morten, but I'm not going to do it again. Neofin Blau is so much better! Grain structure is very much tighter, while still bitingly sharp where Rodinal gives "clumpier" grain. I like the tonalities from Neofin better too, the negatives are far easier to get good prints from. BTW, I used a microscope at 100x enlargement to check the grain structure, and there really is a difference.

    I have never seen grain in a print from EFKE 25 or 50 at the sizes I enlarge to. In fact I have never found grain to focus my grain focuser either, so i have to resort to things like eyelashes and threads in the clothes. That is - developing in Neofin.

    Neofin also gives full film speed or a little more, so you should not overexpose.
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  3. #23
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    Hi Ole!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    Neofin Blau is so much better!
    I have some Neofin Blau lying around somewhere, so I would like to try it out with KB25. What development times are you using?

    Trond

  4. #24
    Ole
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    I use about 4½ minutes, unless I feel like doing more. Sorry, can't be more helpful.... The R50 looks great (contrasty, but controlled and sharp yet virtually grainless) at 8 minutes.
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis P.
    The dev. temperature should be 20 deg. C.

    Maga dev. chart states about 4.5 minutes for Efke 25 at dilution of 1+50, so 1+100 would be closer to 9 minutes, instead of 18, which you used - PLUS you used 21 deg. C., which means your dev. time should have been even shorter than that (by at least 20%).

    You have overdeveloped the film by waaaay too much - particularly if it's intended for scanning, where you usually aim for "thinner" negative. I wonder how you can see ANYTHING on/through those negs

    A few days ago I developed some Efke R25 (shot at EI 25) in Rodinal 1+60 at 20 deg. C for 5 minutes - the results were quite nice.

    I don't know where you got those times for Efke R25 and Rodinal, but those are quite excessive - those times might work OK for Efke R100 (shot at EI 100), but should be MUCH shorter for Efke R25, shot at EI 25.

    As I said, try Efke R25 with Rodinal 1+100 for about 9-11 minutes (max!) and at 20 deg. C. Then let us know the results.

    As a general guideline, I use Efke films with Rodinal 1+50, and the (general) times are:

    R25 = 4.5 - 5 min

    R50 = 7 - 8 min

    R100 = 9.5 - 10 min

    All films shot at nominal EI (i.e 25, 50 and 100), times are for Rodinal 1+50.

    For thinner negatives (for scanning), use the shorter of the two times listed, i.e. for Efke R25 use 4.5 minutes, insted the longer listed time of 5 minutes.
    Naturally, dev. time depends also on the lighting of the shots - for contrasty scenes (sunny) develop less, and for low contrast scenes (dull, overcast light), develop a bit more.

    DISCLAIMER: the above works for me, and the way I work, in my darkroom, with my chemicals, my thermometer, the water I use, etc...
    YMMV (your mileage may vary), as they say

    Regards,

    Denis

    Denis-

    Thanks so much! I will give the shorter times a try.

    Sunny

  6. #26
    noseoil's Avatar
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    Another developer to try with Efke 25 and 100 is PMK pyro. It has image stain which masks the grain structure and good, sharp edges as well.

    7:00 for efke 25 at asa 12
    10-12:00 for efke 100 at asa 50
    A 4 stop push is reason enough to have grain in any film, especially with an acutance developer like rodinal. Slow it down, use a tripod and try again. As Ole has stated, there is no grain to focus on, so an edge or detail in the film's image is what you will have to use for focus. I guess if my eyes were younger I might be able to actually see the grain, but now it just isn't there. I've enlarged a cropped portrait from 35mm to 8x10 print without any grain in the print. Maybe I'm just using the wrong developer, still haven't tried rodinal yet. tim

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denis P.
    The dev. temperature should be 20 deg. C.

    Maga dev. chart states about 4.5 minutes for Efke 25 at dilution of 1+50, so 1+100 would be closer to 9 minutes, instead of 18, which you used - PLUS you used 21 deg. C., which means your dev. time should have been even shorter than that (by at least 20%).

    You have overdeveloped the film by waaaay too much - particularly if it's intended for scanning, where you usually aim for "thinner" negative. I wonder how you can see ANYTHING on/through those negs

    DISCLAIMER: the above works for me, and the way I work, in my darkroom, with my chemicals, my thermometer, the water I use, etc...
    YMMV (your mileage may vary), as they say
    Regards,

    Denis
    This is why you need to use those times only as a guide and YMMV

    I shoot Efke 25 @ 25 and develop in Rodinal 1+100 at 20C for between 18 and 20 minutes, but I use a reduced agitation scheme (15s each minute for first 3 minutes then one inversion every three minutes). The negatives scan lovely. I think Retrophotographics' times for 1+100 are 18 minutes

    I've also tried a couple of sheet films in 1+200 for 45 minutes using stand development. This worked out quite well too.

    In all cases, you'd have to enlarge it a lot to see any grain.

    Paul

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    Grain structure is very much tighter, while still bitingly
    sharp where Rodinal gives "clumpier" grain.
    Neofin also gives full film speed or a little more,...
    Have you tried that film in Beutler's? R. W. Anderson
    writes in Patrick Dignan's Classic B&W Formulas that he
    believes Neofin Blue and Beutler's are essentially the same.
    The two then are very similar to FX-1. Beutler's and FX-1
    are very easy Home Brew. Ascorbate versions of the
    two might yield the ultimate. Dan

  9. #29

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    Grain structure is very much tighter, while still bitingly
    Neofin Blue and Beutler's are essentially the same
    Both statements are right.
    Another developer which works in the same way is AM50 from Amaloco Photochemicals. This improved formula from the AM20 (dated from 1936 !!) is working in the same way as the Neofin Blau from Tetenal.
    Perfect for single layer films and delivered in 3x20ml ampuls.

    All developers are designed in the same time period, by the way.

    Rodinal is also not bad for Efke, but indeed Ole, Neofin Blau & AM50 are better!

    Best regards,

    Robert

    PS. A microscope is easy for this but even with a suitable Peak (I or II) you can see the differences!

  10. #30

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    There is another factor concerning grain that hasn't been addressed here...reticulation.
    I assume that you are being very careful with your chemical and final wash temperatures. While it is okay to have slightly warmer wash temperatures, going from a warmer solution to a colder one invites reticulation which is marked by overly grainy, even clumpy negatives.

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