Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 73,976   Posts: 1,632,812   Online: 1107
      
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 30

Thread: Pyro Developers

  1. #11

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    4,813
    Images
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by steve simmons
    My personal choices for films with PMK are FP4+ and Tri-X. Some feel, and I probably am one of them, that the benefits of a staining developer are somewhat waisted on T-Max as their grain structure minimizes the benefits of the staining process.

    steve simmons
    Steve,

    I don't agree at all. The T-grain films benefit as much as older emulsion films from the use of a staining devleoper. In fact, T-grain films may actually benefit more, because with appropriate developer and technique to enhance surface development these films show very serious enhancement in sharpness.

    Have you ever compared the resolution of traditional films like FP4+ and TMAX-100 developed in staining developers? If not, you should.

    Sandy

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Shooter
    Medium Format
    Posts
    1,036
    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    ..... In fact, T-grain films may actually benefit more, because with appropriate developer and technique to enhance surface development these films show very serious enhancement in sharpness.
    .............
    Sandy
    To which I add that the highlight control when stained negs (especially PMK) are used with VC paper can be very useful with such films (and others, of course).

    I took a picture with TMAX400 inside a cathedral including a very bright rose window, exposed for the much darker walls, dev in PMK, and found it surprisingly easy to print on Vc paper.

    (And with other types of scenes, the highlight compression can be a disadvantage too, using PMK and VC paper. Pyrocat is better in such situations)

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Seattle
    Shooter
    8x10 Format
    Posts
    1,212
    Images
    47
    Quote Originally Posted by jim appleyard
    Pyro is not a magic bullet; there isn't one.
    But pyrocat-hd is a highly polished one. Legend has it that it might even be blessed. Quick pull up the bridge across the moat. Those barbarians from rodinal land are getting ready to attack the castle pyro. I got hit with that sharp grain they throw at us once. It was not a pretty site.

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    368
    Sandy

    Your opinons about staining developers and the new films is not universally shared. Delta 100 and 400 yes but not the T-Max films. T-Max 100 stains very little and will not give you the high value separation that more traditional films will do. Try films like Tri-X and FP4+ which are my two favorites with P<K. I did a test about a year and a half ago with Pyrocat and PMK and much preferred the PMK as i got better high value sep. But I think we agree there are many advantages to a staining developer and once you've tried one, any of them, you might be hooked for life.

    steve simmons

  5. #15
    noseoil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Tucson
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    2,898
    Images
    17
    "I did a test about a year and a half ago with Pyrocat and PMK and much preferred the PMK as i got better high value sep." Steve

    I'm curious how these results worked out in the shadow areas? I have never been satisfied with PMK in the shadow areas, just too muddy or murky in all of my tests. The Pyrocat stands far above PMK with respect to shadows and sharpness, especially with minimal agitation, a thing not possible with PMK due to uneven staining. That having been said, I do prefer PMK in some cases (Efke 25), as it is a very sharp and gives smooth print for enlarging. tim

  6. #16
    fhovie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Port Hueneme, California - USA
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    1,247
    Images
    92
    I agree that pyrocat HD is better for roll films and is great for sheet film - I think it is easier to get more density with p'cat than with other pyro brews. Then there is 510 Pyro - like PMK it gives you larger grain - but it also gives full film speed - if that is important. I used PMK for many years with no regrets and still make wonderful prints from those negatives. My number one pyro choice is pyrocat HD. - I have not used pyrocat hd in a Jobo with rolling but I have used PMK that way with good luck. I still believe you will get better results with hand aggitaion in a full tank. Pyro developers are usually kind of weak and seem to perform better with times of setting. Rolling processing often encourages using less chemical which is a mistake with any of the pyro formulas. The stuff is cheap - use enough. In my Jobo 2510, I use 1250ml and hand aggitate. I save the rollers for other things. I get sharper edges with hand aggitation.
    My photos are always without all that distracting color ...

  7. #17

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    4,813
    Images
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by steve simmons
    Sandy

    Your opinons about staining developers and the new films is not universally shared. Delta 100 and 400 yes but not the T-Max films. T-Max 100 stains very little and will not give you the high value separation that more traditional films will do. Try films like Tri-X and FP4+ which are my two favorites with P<K. I did a test about a year and a half ago with Pyrocat and PMK and much preferred the PMK as i got better high value sep. But I think we agree there are many advantages to a staining developer and once you've tried one, any of them, you might be hooked for life.

    steve simmons
    Steve,

    I could say likewise that your opinion about PMK and Pyrocat-HD is not universally shared by people who have used the two developers. In fact, my impression is the opposite, i.e. most people who have used the two developers stay with Pyrocat-HD. But enough has already been said about your comparison so no point going there again; you edit the magazine and get to put anything you want in there.

    However, you are simply mistaken in your belief that the T-grain films stain very little. Both TMAX-100 and TMAX-400 develop as much proportional stain in Pyrocat-HD as other films. The superior resolution of these fims may not make any difference in contact printing from 8X10 and larger negatives, but there would be a very definite improvement in sharpness and grain in a 20X24 print made with a 4X5 Tmax-100 negative compared to one made with an FP4+ negative. And a huge difference in medium format in any size print over 8X10.

    As to why many people appear to believe that the T-grain films don't do well in staining developers, there are several reasons, but I believe that the first and most important one is ignorance. Many people, most in fact, simply repeat what others say and have never actually done any valid comparisons of their own. And then, there are others who make the comparisions but don't have any understanding of film and paper curves so the conclusions they reach are limited at best, if not completely invalid and useless. I know that is not 100% true because there are obviously some people who have great control of their process and are able to optimize specific film curves to their process, as Dick Arentz for example in printing Pt./Pd with TRI-X, where the long toe and flaring shoulder of the film compensate and enhance the toe and shoulder of the print. But that kind of knowledge and understanding is very rare. In fact, my experince is that very few folks have any clue at all as to the way proportional stain affects the printing characteristics of different film types. And I must say we don't see much understanding of this type in View Camera. Maybe you can work on that.


    Sandy
    Last edited by sanking; 11-19-2005 at 11:04 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #18

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    368
    To disagree is one thing but you are taking this a little over the edge. I do not have any personal agenda, I have not invented any formulae, all I want is good photos at the end. We have done articles on how a staining developer work, perhaps you did not see or read them. When I compared PMK and Pyrocat HD i did not care which was better and would have gladly switched if there was a reason to do so. I liked the PMK better in side by side comparisons. You can feel differently and that is fine. I do not need to criticize or be snide to you and I would appreciate the same from you. To disagree is fine about an issue. Calling me or the magazine into question is beyond what is necessary.

    steve simmons

  9. #19

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    USA
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    1,435
    Images
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by steve simmons

    Again, when the fighting subsided we all agreed that a staining developer was better than a non staining developer.


    steve simmons
    www.viewcamera.com
    Can you define "we all" and "better" or better yet provide a link(s) to this brutal fight/discussion?

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    4,813
    Images
    5
    Steve,

    Where in hell did you find anything in my previous message that suggested you had a personal agenda? My comment about the content of your magazine had nothing to do with your comparison of PMK and Pyrocat-HD, which I don't care to discuss any more, and so stated at the beginning of my message. You need to learn to read with a bit more attention before making knee-jerk reactions and making a complet jack-ass of yourself.

    The criticism I made of of View Camera relates to the fact that there is very little methodogically sound information comparing different films and papers, and that was said within the specific context of my comment on T-grain films and traditional films. It had absolutely nothing to do with the PMK/Pyrocat-HD issue and nothing to do with your editorial integrity. There is a lot you could do, as editor of the magazine to improve this situation, by publishing for example articles that would illustrate the real differences between T-grain and traditonal films as they apply to different developers and processes.

    You really owe me an apology here, unless you just don't like any kind of criticimsm. But whether I get it or not, it should be clearly obvious to anyone with an 8th grade education that my criticism was not directed toward the integrity of you or of the magazine and in no way suggested or implied any personal agenda on your part.

    Sandy


    Quote Originally Posted by steve simmons
    To disagree is one thing but you are taking this a little over the edge. I do not have any personal agenda, I have not invented any formulae, all I want is good photos at the end. We have done articles on how a staining developer work, perhaps you did not see or read them. When I compared PMK and Pyrocat HD i did not care which was better and would have gladly switched if there was a reason to do so. I liked the PMK better in side by side comparisons. You can feel differently and that is fine. I do not need to criticize or be snide to you and I would appreciate the same from you. To disagree is fine about an issue. Calling me or the magazine into question is beyond what is necessary.

    steve simmons
    Last edited by sanking; 11-19-2005 at 02:45 PM. Click to view previous post history.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin