Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,710   Posts: 1,548,627   Online: 1154
      
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 31
  1. #21

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    3,268
    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    Have you actually measured and compared the stain of FP4+ and TMAX-100 films developed in PMK in Visual and Blue modes, or is your comment based on a visual observation?
    Well certainly - that's where I'm basing my observations. Vis, Blue, Green, and Red. I've even made spectrometric measurements of the stains from UV to near IR -

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    3,268
    Quote Originally Posted by phfitz
    I don't think the point was if Tmax stains or not but rather does it actually make a difference with Tmx100 sheet film.
    Yes, that is an excellent question - I think everyone will come up with different personal answers for it.

    Also, Sandy made mention of resolution benefits as well. Perhaps we can address that too, as even though you may decide the stain is not enough reason, maybe if there is a resolution benefit, then it may be. I can't address that as I have not done sufficient testing to say.

  3. #23
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    23,070
    Images
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Keyes
    Perhaps this is one reason that more moderm emulsion designs could lead to relatively less staining?

    Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com
    Kirk, yes, if you replace a portion of gelatin with a polymer, then that polymer is not as likely to stain.

    However, if there is an advantage in one formula, it is often adopted across the board to make all of the formulas more uniform and consolidate problem areas to similar conditions. So, in the end, I'm afraid that the polymers would end up in K-grain films as well. And that is what happened AFAIK.

    I apologize for not extending that last answer to include this information. I should have.

    PE

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    4,813
    Images
    5
    Kirk,

    The specific CI of the negatives is irrelevant to this issue. The question is simply this. If you select any specific density, say .90, on the step scale for both the traditional and T-grain film, what is the relationship of silver density (Visual mode) to silver density plus stain (Blue mode) between the two?

    Obviously the negative set I selected has a fairly high CI. However, a lower CI would not have changed the relationships at any specific measured Visual density. If Step 11 has a measured Visual density of .90 and a measured Blue mode density of 1.30, that same percentage increase would continue to exist if the negative were developed to a lower CI and the Step 11 denstiy of .90 were shifted to Step 1. I am not speculating. I observe the same relationship in other negatives in the sets from which these were taken.

    If you have step wedge tests of TMAX-100 and FP4+ developed in PMK, post them here and I will find an equivalent pair of negatives of approximately the same CI developed in Pyrocat-HD to compare data for the two developers.

    Sandy
    Last edited by sanking; 11-23-2005 at 08:18 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #25

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    4,813
    Images
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by phfitz
    Hi there,

    I must have missed something on the first thread. I don't think the point was if Tmax stains or not but rather does it actually make a difference with Tmx100 sheet film.

    So directly, is there a legitimate, compelling reason to change over from D76/ Xytol/ TmaxRS to a staining pyro developer for Tmax Tmx100 sheet film?

    Will the stain mask reduce the apparent grain?
    Will the stain mask work with the built-in U.V. blockers?
    Will it raise the apparent sharpness with an edge effect?
    Will it raise the film speed?
    Will it soften the toe or introduce a shoulder?

    Is it actually worth changing over if one does not use a pyro developer?

    So far as I understand the only explanation that has ever been offered as to why TMAX films do not benefit from staining developers is the suggestion that they do not stain well, or that they don't stain well as other films.

    But I will take a shot at your questions? Bear in mind, there is some supposition here.

    Will the stain mask reduce the apparent grain?
    I believe it will. However, T-grain films, espcially TMAX-100, already have very reduced apparent grain compared to traditional films of equivalent ISO, so you might have to make a fairly large print before there would be any difference.

    Will the stain mask work with the built-in U.V. blockers?
    Yes, the stain has its own density apart from that of the UV coating. Of course, the UV coating on TMAX-100 makes it virtually useless for UV processes, but that is another story.

    Will it raise the apparent sharpness with an edge effect?
    I believe so. However, the T-grain films are already significantly sharper than traditional films because of better resolution, so you may have to make very large prints to see a differnce. Bear in mind that tests for sharpness should always be based on multiple samples at equivalent lens aperture because the tolerance of ground glass position introduces errors that are usually greater than the real difference between any developers.

    Will it raise the film speed?
    That depends on the formula. However, real differences in EI that can be attributed to the developer are very small, in fact much too small to be measured except with sensitometry, and then only with systems that provide 100% consistency in exposure, i.e. sensitometers or light iintegration systems. The accumulated errors of camera systems and development (aperture setting, shutter inaccuracies, solution and temperature control in the darkroom, consistenty of exposure when printing) introduce errors that are potentially well beyond the small differences that may exist in the EI potential of two developers.

    Will it soften the toe or introduce a shoulder?
    This depends on 1) choice of developer, and 2) printing process. Developers that produce a greeen stain cause more shoulder compression than those that produce a brown stain. Compression is good for some subjects, undesirable for others. If you understand and apply this concept you will have a far greater understanding of staining developers than many persons who consider themselves expert in their use.

    Sandy
    Last edited by sanking; 11-23-2005 at 08:19 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Greenville, SC
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    4,813
    Images
    5
    Kirk,

    I am attaching a Word file with all densities Step 1 to 21 of TMAX-100 and FP4+ with both films developed to a lower CI. Just track the Visual to Blue at any given density and I think you will see my point from the previous message.

    IMO there is no other conclusion one can reach but that TMAX-100 develops as much stain as FP4+, if we base the data on Blue mode analysis. In point of fact the TMAX film shows an even greater percentage of increase than FP4 in the midtones and highlights, though the difference is very small.

    I am fairly certain that the Blue mode analyis does not predict exact VC printing densities, and the best color filter would probably be somewhere between Green and Blue, perhaps Ortho as you suggested once. However, a quick look at the measurments in Green mode indicates that the readings are just slightly more tha Visual measurments. Saying more than this would require actual printing of step tablets with the negatives and plotting the print curves.



    Sandy
    Attached Files
    Last edited by sanking; 11-23-2005 at 03:27 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    540
    HI there,

    Kirk and Sandy, thanks for the responses. A whole thread and no flaming, golly. I guess for 'Tmax100' there is no pressing reason to change over save curiousity or personal taste.

    Happy Thanksgiving everyone
    {only 31 shopping days till Christmas ;-) }

  8. #28

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,670
    Quote Originally Posted by df cardwell
    One of the vital things lost since the deaths of Adams and Minor White has been their sense of perspective. Both teachers placed personal expression ahead of technical perfection, then introduced techniques appropriate to serving the visionary needs of photographers. In his Introduction to The Camera, Adams discussed visualisation, calling it "the foundation of this and all the projected books of (his) series". Visualisation, to Adams, "is to see (an image) clearly in the mind prior to exposure, a continuous projection from composing the image through the final print."

    He called it "an attitude toward photography rather than a dogma." He warned consistently that it was better to make a fuzzy picture of a clear idea " than a brilliant image of a fuzzy concept."

    In the past 20 years, there has been an astonishing general achievement in making dazzling images that are empty of all emotion, and of no value at all. There is no conversation today among writers, readers or practitioners that acknowledge the foundation of all of Adams' teaching, visualisation. Instead, there is obsession over technical virtuosity driven by a literalist dogma of what constitutes a 'good picture' or proper technique.

    Neither Adams, White, nor any truly good teacher ever allowed ideology to limit their students' picture making, BUT taught appropriate methods to support personal vision with the necessary technique. Today, however, we witness jihad on those who would defy the narrow minded certainties of limited technical approaches, usually based on the magical properties of certain materials, equipment, or a superstituous approach to sensitometry.[/I].
    Amen, amen!

    This is why the work of Jerry Uelsmann leaves me cold. Beautiful technique, but it doesn't say anything. There is nothing behind the image.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Shooter
    Large Format
    Posts
    6,242
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Koch
    Amen, amen!

    This is why the work of Jerry Uelsmann leaves me cold. Beautiful technique, but it doesn't say anything. There is nothing behind the image.
    I recognize that the appreciation of a photographic image is a very personal thing. However in defense of Uelsmann his images are not intended to be representative of objective reality. They are highly symbolic and require a knowledge of symbolism. From that knowledge arises the appreciation for his work.

    I believe that on the basis of presenting an image inviting the participation of the observer that Uelsmann stands head and shoulders above the more purely representational photographers like Ansel Adams.

    Uelsmann's work requires more from the observer but by the same token it provides more to the observer.

    The same can be said for Misha Gordin's work as well as other photographers that work at that level.

    Personally, while I began with an appreciation of purely representational work, I have in recent years gravitated to work that requires more intellectual involvement from me. If too much representational information is provided by the photographer there is nothing left for the observer to add.

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Milwaukee, Wi
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    3,242
    I have no plots of data to offer. Rather I have a good deal of practical experience in using "regular" and Tgrain emulsions with both staining and non-staining developers. I can see no difference between the emulsion types as as to how the pesence of the stain influences the values in a print. I find the effect of the staining etc to be quite noticeable with either emulsion type.

    Although this is but ancedotal evidence I find it difficult to ignore.

    As Dfcardwell so nicely points out technique for the producer of prints is not
    a matter of supreme importance. Each photographer decides for themselves what technique to follow. I have come to the conclusion that in many cases the methodology chosen is very much influenced by the photographer's personality. There is no reason that extremely nice photos cannot be made with a point and shoot camera and lab processing. I magine HCB could have used one to good advantange.

    On the other hand I most strongly believe that this forum is more than a place to show well made prints. There are members in this forum that are providing very worthwhile service to all of us with their contribution to advancement in technique irrespective of whether others consider photographs made by them be visually interesting.
    Claire (Ms Anne Thrope is in the darkroom)

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin