Harvey's 777

Harry Lime · 12-10-2005, 12:29 PM

I'm about to take the plunge and try Harvey's 777. I recently purchased two packs from the Frugal Photographer and before I get started with it I had a few questions, that perhaps someone here can answer.

Storage. I thinking about getting two 2 gallon tanks with floating lids.
One for the active developer and the second for the replenisher.

http://tinyurl.com/d69op

Any hints about mixing this stuff? It appears that one of the components is quite toxic, so I will use rubber gloves.

How about replenishing? I've only ever used one-shot developers, so any information would be appreciated.

I shoot Tri-X@400 in 135 (and some 120) 90% of the time. Does anyone have any experience with this combination?

Can you push process Tri-X to 800 or 1600 in 777?

Is 777 closer to XTOL or D76? Someone told me it's similar to Pyro...
This may be a difficult question to answer, since the formula is secret, but perhaps someone can speak from experience.

Considering the advances that have been made in the past decades (XTOL etc.), is 777 still worth the effort? I know there is no such thing as a magic bullet in photography, but 777 sure sounds intriguing.

How about development temperature? I read somewhere that it works best at 75F. How about room temperature (68F)?

777 is supposed to be very sensitive to agitation. Anyone care to share?

How about the ripening process? How does this work?

I have read that 777 should be used in large quantities. I have a 1000 ml tank that I was going to use to develop no more than 2 rolls at a time in. How do you folks deal with 4 rolls at a time? Do you use an 8 roll tank for 4 rolls? I sometimes shoot 10 rolls or more at a time on an assignment, so I need to find an efficient method to process large batches.

I would appreciate any other comments or experiences anyone can share, regarding this developer. If anyone has any examples they would like to share, that would be great.

Thanks,

Harry Lime

df cardwell · 12-10-2005, 01:39 PM

http://www.apug.org/forums/article.p...ttachmentid=87

Harvey's 777 is functionally VERY SIMILAR to Edwal 12, whose chemist, Dr. Edmund L. Lowe, belived in full documentation. While the proportions are somewhat different, like D23 is to D76, what you can say about using one is true for the other. Take a look at the link to an extract from Lowe's book, " What You Want to Know About Developers, Fine Grain and Otherwise". He details how you use the developer as a 1 shot, or as a replenishment developer. He details the critical step of 'seasoning' if you are to replenish.

The classic notion of 'fine grain' is regular, sharp, and unclumpy grain. This is a fine grain developer by that notion, do not expect a soft, solvent image.

Also, the normal gamma, or contrast index, of the day was higher than is normal today. Allow the negative to develop fully, and use a softer than Dektol developer to print your pictures.

The magic behind this type of developer, PPD, contributes little to development of the image. Rather it energized Glycin which normally will not function at this low pH. The long and faithful highlights characterize this developer is common to glycin developers. The metol in the formula was introduced by Lowe ( and copied by Harvey ) to increase density in the low values. His mechanism was used later by Crawley in FX2, Wimberley, Hutchings, and Sandy King.

The developer will stain anything it touches. So, don't use Granny's Tea Towels. No need to be paranoid, just don't drink it.

It is excellent, either as Edwal 12 or 777. Use D76 starting times, and don't be obsessive about 2005 densitometry methods for determing speed point, CI, etc. It's a great 1938 developer.

.

Jim Chinn · 12-10-2005, 02:35 PM

Welcome Harry.

Here is very comprehensive article on 777 posted at Unblinkingeye if you have not yet seen it:http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Harvey/harvey.html

Tom Hoskinson · 12-10-2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I'm about to take the plunge and try Harvey's 777. I recently purchased two packs from the Frugal Photographer and before I get started with it I had a few questions, that perhaps someone here can answer.

Storage. I thinking about getting two 2 gallon tanks with floating lids.
One for the active developer and the second for the replenisher.

http://tinyurl.com/d69op

Any hints about mixing this stuff? It appears that one of the components is quite toxic, so I will use rubber gloves.

How about replenishing? I've only ever used one-shot developers, so any information would be appreciated.

I shoot Tri-X@400 in 135 (and some 120) 90% of the time. Does anyone have any experience with this combination?

Can you push process Tri-X to 800 or 1600 in 777?

Is 777 closer to XTOL or D76? Someone told me it's similar to Pyro...
This may be a difficult question to answer, since the formula is secret, but perhaps someone can speak from experience.

Considering the advances that have been made in the past decades (XTOL etc.), is 777 still worth the effort? I know there is no such thing as a magic bullet in photography, but 777 sure sounds intriguing.

How about development temperature? I read somewhere that it works best at 75F. How about room temperature (68F)?

777 is supposed to be very sensitive to agitation. Anyone care to share?

How about the ripening process? How does this work?

I have read that 777 should be used in large quantities. I have a 1000 ml tank that I was going to use to develop no more than 2 rolls at a time in. How do you folks deal with 4 rolls at a time? Do you use an 8 roll tank for 4 rolls? I sometimes shoot 10 rolls or more at a time on an assignment, so I need to find an efficient method to process large batches.

I would appreciate any other comments or experiences anyone can share, regarding this developer. If anyone has any examples they would like to share, that would be great.

Thanks,

Harry Lime

I have no direct experience with this developer - but it sounds to me like a classic Magic Bullet. I haven't tested it because I won't buy a developer that has no MSDS. I can not find an MSDS for 777 published by Frugal Photographer or by Bluegrass Packaging.

Frugal Photographer sells the 777 product distributed (and presumably manufactured) by BlueGrass Packaging. According to Apug member John Jnanian, Bluegrass denies that their 777 contains any Glycin - they also say the formula is completely different from the 777 formula published on the Unblinking Eye site.

c6h6o3 · 12-10-2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hoskinson

Bluegrass denies that their 777 contains any Glycin - they also say the formula is completely different from the 777 formula published on the Unblinking Eye site.

Did they really say "Our formula does not contain any glycin" or did they just refuse to confirm that it does? If the former, then I think they're lying. I've used a lot of glycin developers and they all have a unique look which is just not there without it.

I have not been able to pry a single word out of Bluegrass as to what's in it. Do I care? Fred De Van had the best answer to that question:

"None of us had any interest in making it ourselves, but what was in it was a constant question. The differences in performance in small tanks and the way agitation changed the result always led to the question as to why (when there was time to think of such otherwise unimportant things--we knew how to use it right)."

I figure that if it was good enough for Henri Cartier-Bresson (who insisted on its use) then it's good enough for me.

Bill Mitchell · 12-10-2005, 04:44 PM

There were a couple of pages devoted to using 777 in the early post-war (1947?)Leica Manual. (Sorry I can't give details, but I just moved and all my books are still in boxes.)

Colin Graham · 12-10-2005, 05:17 PM

Harry Lime...the name makes me think of zither music and Orson Welles walking down a Berlin alley...

df cardwell · 12-10-2005, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdef

df,

thanks for the link, and commentary. Reading that the glycin in Edwal 12 can be adjusted between 2 and 10 grams/liter, it's not much of a stretch to see a formula containing 7g ea. of glycin,metol and p-phenylenediamine, which might be called 777, and behave much like Edwal 12.

Do you have this info as well?

Jay

Yes ! Also available in the Photo Lab Index, both Edwal 12 and 777.

I love going through Lowe's writing. You can trace the Sease formulas ( PPD and Glycin ) to Lowe's ( add Metol ). And When Lowe published, he shared all the techniques and variations, even down to using thiocyanate, and how to doctor the dose to avoid fog. It'll have to be snowing pretty hard before I take that one on ! There are always going to be inventive, rigourous and clear-headed folks in photography, and Lowe is really inspiring.

Harry Lime · 12-10-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin Graham

Harry Lime...the name makes me think of zither music and Orson Welles walking down a Berlin alley...

That would be Vienna, mein Freund.
;-)

Harry Lime

jnanian · 12-10-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Hoskinson

According to Apug member John Jnanian, Bluegrass denies that their 777 contains any Glycin - they also say the formula is completely different from the 777 formula published on the Unblinking Eye site.

this is true - i called and asked them directly if this developer contains glycin, and they told me that it does not. they also told me they have read the formula published on the unblinking eye website and the person i spoke with giggled and said they were "way off" ... i also asked this person what she had to do with the "777" - she said she was the person who mixed up, packaged it, and sent it out to customers who wanted it.

not sure if she was joking with me, if she was, i fell for it

- john